Saving Money as Prices Increase

[jyoutz]

Which you fund btw.

A lot of states are ending contracts with private prisons (my state and AZ did) because they cost more per inmate than state prisons.

 

[Larry Caldwell]

A lot of states are ending contracts with private prisons (my state and AZ did) because they cost more per inmate than state prisons.

Once upon a time, when I was a child, the purpose of prisons was rehabilitation. A big part of the American West was settled by men on the lam from the law back east. Given a second start, many of them became pillars of the community. Second chances are a thing of the past, and private prisons have a vested interest in inmates that return again and again.

 

[jyoutz]

Once upon a time, when I was a child, the purpose of prisons was rehabilitation. A big part of the American West was settled by men on the lam from the law back east. Given a second start, many of them became pillars of the community. Second chances are a thing of the past, and private prisons have a vested interest in inmates that return again and again.

Yes, but I think they are falling out of favor with state governments because of high cost.

 

[MossRoad]

Fuel taxes build roads. Nobody else builds them except government.

What about toll roads?

Back in the 50's, the government used eminent domain to take land completely across northern Indiana from Illinois to Ohio to build the toll road. They said it would be converted to a freeway after the bonds were paid off by tolls. The bonds got paid off, so they re-bonded it and kept it a toll road. It got paid off again, but they never fulfilled their promise of a freeway for northern Indiana. A while back, they sold a lease of the toll road operations to a private consortium for $4 billion dollars, for something like 65 years. Then they spent the money on projects around the state, instead of just in northern Indiana, where we bear the burden of the only toll road in the state. There was a stipulation that if the consortium failed they had to return it to the state. They failed. It was returned. And the sold the lease again!

So yeah, the government built it, but the drivers paid for it in tolls.

Another instance of private road building is near the University of Notre Dame. When they want a public road built, closed, moved, improved, they pay for it.

What's also amazing is that any road that ND is involved with, the project is completed fast and done well. Much better than if the government contracts it out. We often joke about that locally.

 

[jyoutz]

What about toll roads?

Back in the 50's, the government used eminent domain to take land completely across northern Indiana from Illinois to Ohio to build the toll road. They said it would be converted to a freeway after the bonds were paid off by tolls. The bonds got paid off, so they re-bonded it and kept it a toll road. It got paid off again, but they never fulfilled their promise of a freeway for northern Indiana. A while back, they sold a lease of the toll road operations to a private consortium for $4 billion dollars, for something like 65 years. Then they spent the money on projects around the state, instead of just in northern Indiana, where we bear the burden of the only toll road in the state. There was a stipulation that if the consortium failed they had to return it to the state. They failed. It was returned. And the sold the lease again!

So yeah, the government built it, but the drivers paid for it in tolls.

Another instance of private road building is near the University of Notre Dame. When they want a public road built, closed, moved, improved, they pay for it.

What's also amazing is that any road that ND is involved with, the project is completed fast and done well. Much better than if the government contracts it out. We often joke about that locally.

I guess toll roads are more prevalent in some states than others. Keep in mind the vast interstate highway system. These are maintained by states using federal highway funding. Toll roads seem to be more of an urban thing that don’t span too many miles.

 

[MossRoad]

Once upon a time, when I was a child, the purpose of prisons was rehabilitation. A big part of the American West was settled by men on the lam from the law back east. Given a second start, many of them became pillars of the community. Second chances are a thing of the past, and private prisons have a vested interest in inmates that return again and again.

My father said when he was young, they used to bring prisoners out from the county jail and have them work on the brick streets. They'd pull the bricks, relieves the bed under them, turn the bricks 1/4 turn, and set them back in place. However, a bunch of city workers and their union said the prisoners were taking work away from law abiding citizens, so the program was ended.

Back in the 90's I was into disk golf. We knew the park superintendent, and he'd let us into the park before it was open in the morning so we could get a round in before work. We'd pay on the way out as the park opened. This was in Michigan. Several days a week, they had county prison vans there with two guards with shotguns watching prisoners do groundskeeping and maintenance at the park. It was interesting. Some guys were just in orange jumpsuits, had chainsaws, weedeaters, axes, machetes, etc., safety equipment, and were just working away. Some guys only had hand tools. Some guys had leg irons and sandals and a rake. And one guy always had leg irons and his hands cuffed to a chain around his waist, and a chain from his wrists to his leg irons. And even he had a little plastic rake like a kid's toy and he would be raking small areas.

The guards said it all depended on your level of offense and your behavior while in jail. The better you behaved in jail, the more freedom you had in jail and when on work details. He said the guys liked getting outside and doing something that showed results that they could be proud of and put some skin back into the community. Even the chained up dude went along with it just to get some sunshine and get out of jail for a while.

I wish there was more of that. It wasn't a chain gang and they weren't forced to work. They volunteered for the duty and the community benefitted not only from the work, but from the cost savings of having to pay people to do it.

 

[MossRoad]

I guess toll roads are more prevalent in some states than others. Keep in mind the vast interstate highway system. These are maintained by states using federal highway funding. Toll roads seem to be more of an urban thing that don’t span too many miles.

Where do you live, and what planet are you from? Just kidding, but I gather you don't drive I-90 from Boston to Wisconsin much.

The toll road I'm most familiar with runs non-stop from Chicago to Boston. Most of Northern Indiana, Ohio, a short part of Pennsylvania, and most of upstate NY is rural. It's about 940 miles of tolls between those two towns.

Also, I just drove through Oklahoma and I have to say, there's nothing urban about that toll road! MOOO! and that's about it.

 

[Hay Dude]

My father said when he was young, they used to bring prisoners out from the county jail and have them work on the brick streets. They'd pull the bricks, relieves the bed under them, turn the bricks 1/4 turn, and set them back in place. However, a bunch of city workers and their union said the prisoners were taking work away from law abiding citizens, so the program was ended.

Back in the 90's I was into disk golf. We knew the park superintendent, and he'd let us into the park before it was open in the morning so we could get a round in before work. We'd pay on the way out as the park opened. This was in Michigan. Several days a week, they had county prison vans there with two guards with shotguns watching prisoners do groundskeeping and maintenance at the park. It was interesting. Some guys were just in orange jumpsuits, had chainsaws, weedeaters, axes, machetes, etc., safety equipment, and were just working away. Some guys only had hand tools. Some guys had leg irons and sandals and a rake. And one guy always had leg irons and his hands cuffed to a chain around his waist, and a chain from his wrists to his leg irons. And even he had a little plastic rake like a kid's toy and he would be raking small areas.

The guards said it all depended on your level of offense and your behavior while in jail. The better you behaved in jail, the more freedom you had in jail and when on work details. He said the guys liked getting outside and doing something that showed results that they could be proud of and put some skin back into the community. Even the chained up dude went along with it just to get some sunshine and get out of jail for a while.

I wish there was more of that. It wasn't a chain gang and they weren't forced to work. They volunteered for the duty and the community benefitted not only from the work, but from the cost savings of having to pay people to do it.

Our county prison had a vast working farm. Inmates planted & harvested corn & hay. They mowed all the grounds too. They had farm tractors, trucks, equipment, etc.
20 years ago, the hay fields were turned into gray water spray- irrigation fields. Prisoners complained it was inhumane to work in the fields sprayed with gray water.
Prison complied with prisoner complaints and ended the farming program. All the equipment was sold.

Now a private farmer cuts, bales & sells the hay.
Prisoners sit inside and watch TV.

PA funds the Pennsylvania State Police through state gas taxation (2nd highest in the continental USA).

 

[ultrarunner]

Complaints about prison labor resurface and just recently called slaves of the state.

California prisoners can volunteer for fire fighting and it is sought after.

The program is a success and some have transitioned to civilian fire fighters and tree work.

I guess the classic is making license plates?

 

[5030]

What about toll roads?

If I'm not mistaken, wasn't the Indiana Toll Road sold to a foreign company a few years ago? Now all the excess revenue (other than what is required for upkeep, maintenance and salaries), goes offshore to a foreign entity.... Correct me if I'm wrong Mossy...