Saw Stop vs Others

[N80]

I have been dabbling in woodworking for years. Mostly just built in shelves and such with big box dimensional lumber. Over the last few years I've been using wood (primarily white oak, red oak and ash) to make simple furniture. I have a good bandsaw, a planer, a 10" bench top jointer, a lathe and a compound miter saw. What I have never had is a table saw and I spend a lot of time working around that lack. Now I'm considering one. I've used old contractor table saws in the past.............back when I was too ignorant to know how dangerous they were when combined with ignorance.

I cannot afford and do not have space for a cabinet saw so I'm looking at a contractor level saw. Of course the Saw Stop saws have an obvious appeal in regard to safety but they seem to be quality saws. I've read all the debates about their cost and potential downsides. I'm not looking to debate that here. One of the main arguments I hear is that they are overpriced compared to Jet, Powermatic etc. But when I look at similar sized and powered contractor saws I am not seeing much of a price difference if any and so what I'm wondering is if I am comparing apples to apples. Saw Stop does nickel and dime you to death on accessories and add-ons. The saw I am considering is their contractor saw with 1.75hp and the upgraded fence and table extension. About $2300. The Jet and the Powermatic are about the same price.

Am I missing something?

 

[WinterDeere]

I remember when SawStop first hit the market, probably around 1998 or 99, originally as an add-on for other brands, before they came out with their own saws. I used to be an avid reader of all the popular woodworking magazines then (including “Popular Woodworking”, lol…), and they basically all raved about SawStops saws when they hit the market. I have trouble remembering a single negative review, although it’s admittedly quite a few years (and likely design revisions) back.

That said, if the competition is Jet and Grizzly, you can’t do much worse. I’ve owned machines from both, in fact I still have one JWBS18 next to my Crescent 32” saw, and they ain’t exactly heirloom quality machinery.

I’m astounded by the pricing. My 2400 lb. Oliver 14” dual arbor cabinet saw with rolling table, quadrant, two miter gauges that each weigh more than Jet’s entire table saw, and fence, all ran me $650 with a 5hp motor. That said, getting it home by myself was a feat not outdone by the Egyptians building their pyramids.

I watched my FIL cut his finger off on a Delta contractor saw, about 15 years ago. After that, I remember thinking that, if I ever buy a new saw, it will be a SawStop. Why not? I do believe the claimed problems against them are exaggerated, and likely will never occur to most users. Can you still defeat the system, if there’s a rare occasion you need to cut wet wood, etc.?

 

[N80]

You can deactivate the safety brake. It takes a few steps but is not complicated. You have to deactivate it if you cut anything conductive which includes wet treated lumber, metal, etc. Replacement brake modules cost about $120 and are simple to replace. The blade is usually ruined. So an activation can cost a couple hundred bucks if it ruins a good blade.

I had a good friend who lost a finger on a table saw. He had years of experience.

I bet if that Oliver was new it would cost $8000.

I don't feel like I have to have a Saw Stop just for the safety aspect but if they don't cost much more than the competition the added safety would at least be reassuring.

 

[EddieWalker]

I had a Craftsman table saw with a Biesemeryer Fence that I paid extra for that I really liked for a long time until it was stolen. The fence really made it a nice saw to use. Then I bought a lighter, very portable Bosch table saw that was great for jobs I was on, but after ten years the motor seized up on me and I haven't replaced it yet. I inherited a Grizzly cabinet saw, but haven't used it yet and I don't even know if it works.

In my experience, the scariest things that a table saw does is catch the wood and throw it at back at you. I haven't been hit, but I've had it fly by me so fast that I barely saw it happen. Every time I was either cutting a lot of plywood into squares or making long pieces of wood into shorter pieces. Now I use the chop saw or my cordless saw to do those things.

If I was buying new today, I think it's worth the extra safety to buy the SawStop table saw. Things happen very fast when they go wrong on a table saw and there isn't any way to prepare for it.

I'm not sure if 1.75 HP is enough. The portable Bosch table saw is 4 hp, and that was pretty good for most of what I did with it.

 

[dadohead]

I met Steve Gass (Saw Stop founder) in 1998 at the WWF show in Atlanta. We both were displaying in the new products area so I talked with him extensively. Saw Stop (just a saw module then) made a huge splash! On the business side, there was a problem: no tool company wanted to take it on. Adopting the design meant having a 'safe' saw along with their current line of 'unsafe' saws. Nobody would do that.... so they let him simmer on the side hoping he'd just go away. He was in a bind. He even shipped his proto saw to John Deere Horicon Works at my request and demo'd (mowers are rotary cutters too!) I watched as JD senior management came to the same conclusion: "this could be a problem for us... let's do nothing." Steve  had to go into the saw business.

 

[WinterDeere]

I bet if that Oliver was new it would cost $8000.

The last closest equivalents were over $30k in early-2000's dollars. So maybe $50k, today? The saw could sling a single 22" blade, two 14" blades, or any combination in-between. I'd keep a 14" or 16" rip blade on one arbor and a 10" or 12" dado stack on the other, and select which one was up vs. down with the crank of a handle. Great table saw, but filled an entire garage bay, so I sold it to make room for more tractors and sailboats.

If I were you, I wouldn't let the chance of losing a $200 - $300 blade + brake combo be the deciding factor between SawStop and Jet, PM, or Griz. If the accessories or fixtures you want to run are compatible with the SS, and quality is at least comparable, I'd go with that. Fingers are expensive, and precious!

Throw a cheap narrow-kerf blade on the saw, when you need to make chancey cuts, where you're in fear of the mechanism actuating. Or just disable the stop feature for those occasions, and take a little extra care.

 

[N80]

I'm not sure if 1.75 HP is enough. The portable Bosch table saw is 4 hp, and that was pretty good for most of what I did with it.

That's a concern for sure. That is the only HP available in the contractor saw. It seems capable enough for what I want to do in the review videos I've watched. To go to their higher HP saws you have to step up to cabinet saws that would run almost $1000 more. I can hardly justify the price of the contractor saw much less a cabinet saw. Cabinet saws also require 220 which would add to the cost for me.

I think if the 1.75 hp turned out to be insufficient I should be able to sell the saw without too big of a loss. I hear folks on line talking about cheap used Saw Stop saws. I don't know where they are looking. I can find one within a 100 miles of me.

 

[Sawyer Rob]

When I decided to close my custom furniture/cabinet shop, I kept all of my equipment, including two Delta Unisaws, and a huge American Huss tablesaw, so I have plenty of experience with table saws.

My huge complaint with Saw Stop is, when they came on the scene, they tried VERY hard to get our government to REQUIRE the use of THEIR blade stop on EVERY new saw sold in the U.S., and guess who would have got rich off that!

Anyway, I would MUCH rather have a used Unisaw or Powermatic cabinet saw than ANYTHING smaller/lighter new! I wore out a couple lessor saws, (not chinese junk) and they were hard to get as precision of cuts as the blades just wouldn't stay put where I set them. You could just "feel" the difference when running the saw, and yes it did make a difference in the build quality.

IF, I couldn't afford a GOOD tablesaw, I'd spend aprox half the money one cost, and buy a -------------> Festool brand, track saw!!

SR

 

[N80]

The last closest equivalents were over $30k in early-2000's dollars. So maybe $50k, today?

Wow!

 

[WinterDeere]

I'm not sure if 1.75 HP is enough. The portable Bosch table saw is 4 hp, and that was pretty good for most of what I did with it.

There is no true 4 hp portable saw, your 120VAC wall outlet can't even supply 4 hp. I suspect what you're seeing there is a universal motor, which are often rated on monentary current draw at stall. And yes, they do supply an absolutely massive amount of torque as they approach stall, so the rating is "kind of" fair... in that sense.

4 hp requires 24.5 amps RMS at 120VAC, with 100% efficiency and no voltage drop. Not happening!

 

[GrandpaSmurf825]

I have a SawStop 3 HP PCS so I can speak from actual boots on the ground experience. I would suggest if you are on FB to join the SawStop owners group. One thing I think that is misunderstood is the footprint. The contractor saw will require more floor space because of the motor overhang out the back. I will attach the link from the SS website. So you might want to give the PCS serious consideration.

It only takes seconds to disable the brake if you are cutting wet wood or something conductive. You simply turn the key and hold it as I recall until the red light flashes and then pull the paddle out while continuing to hold the key. It will flash again to tell you that you can release it. It only takes seconds to do this. I can count on one hand the number of times I have used it in bypass mode. While the brake won't activate it will still turn off if something like wet treated lumber is cut and it makes the circuit. Which is really incorrect because I think it's reading capacitance or something. I was cutting a wet 4 by 4 and it turned off about half way through the cut. So I had to do the bypass twice.

I have never had a brake activation. I still treat it like it doesn't have a brake. In the FB group it amazes me the people who have activations because of flesh contact. (They obviously need the safety feature) The other common activation is with their (usually Incra aluminum) miter gauge. They turn it and it gets closer and they don't do a test pass with it turned off. Even before I got my SS I always double checked even on my old Craftsman contractor saw.

The other thing is it's a great saw even without the safety aspect. Smooth and accurate! It's a joy to use and exceptional dust collection.

America's #1 table saw. The leader in table saw safety | SawStop

SawStop is North America's #1 table saw. Our table saw is the safest on the market. Find out how SawStop can work for you. Visit sawstop.com today.

www.sawstop.com

 

[dadohead]

Regarding which contractor saw to buy... I'd be open to buying used. I grewup in a cabinet shop though. What I see are TV build-it shows, videos, and magazines showing so many guards and safety devices it's unsafe! I was taught to setup a saw fence with an indicator so it's dead parallel, never put fingers/hands in line with the blade, and maintain control. My '46 Unisaw see's a dado fairly often so that complicates Saw Stop usage for me.

If I were looking, I'd want an older 10" Delta, Craftsman, whatever??? with a quality fence system that stays rigid and parallel when locked. There are plenty of old, used saws out there. BTW- 1hp is plenty and cabinet saws take up the same footprint as contractor saws.... be open minded.

 

[N80]

IF, I couldn't afford a GOOD tablesaw, I'd spend aprox half the money one cost, and buy a -------------> Festool brand, track saw!!

I have thought about that a lot. But, I do not use a lot of sheet goods so I wouldn't need the track saw or table saw for that.

I suspect most of my use for the table saw would be squaring the 4th edge after jointing and planing boards that are 5' long or less and/or cutting them to width, cutting glue ups to width and length and some precise cross cutting (would probably make a sled). I would probably cut drawer slots and maybe some rabbits, etc. So I don't know if a track saw would do all of those things.

 

[N80]

I have a SawStop 3 HP PCS so I can speak from actual boots on the ground experience. I would suggest if you are on FB to join the SawStop owners group. One thing I think that is misunderstood is the footprint. The contractor saw will require more floor space because of the motor overhang out the back. I will attach the link from the SS website. So you might want to give the PCS serious consideration.

It only takes seconds to disable the brake if you are cutting wet wood or something conductive. You simply turn the key and hold it as I recall until the red light flashes and then pull the paddle out while continuing to hold the key. It will flash again to tell you that you can release it. It only takes seconds to do this. I can count on one hand the number of times I have used it in bypass mode. While the brake won't activate it will still turn off if something like wet treated lumber is cut and it makes the circuit. Which is really incorrect because I think it's reading capacitance or something. I was cutting a wet 4 by 4 and it turned off about half way through the cut. So I had to do the bypass twice.

I have never had a brake activation. I still treat it like it doesn't have a brake. In the FB group it amazes me the people who have activations because of flesh contact. (They obviously need the safety feature) The other common activation is with their (usually Incra aluminum) miter gauge. They turn it and it gets closer and they don't do a test pass with it turned off. Even before I got my SS I always double checked even on my old Craftsman contractor saw.

The other thing is it's a great saw even without the safety aspect. Smooth and accurate! It's a joy to use and exceptional dust collection.

America's #1 table saw. The leader in table saw safety | SawStop

SawStop is North America's #1 table saw. Our table saw is the safest on the market. Find out how SawStop can work for you. Visit sawstop.com today.

www.sawstop.com

I agree with you about the PCS. I just can't justify the cost. I would also need to move this saw around some. Not constantly but often enough.

 

[GrandpaSmurf825]

There is no true 4 hp portable saw, your 120VAC wall outlet can't even supply 4 hp. I suspect what you're seeing there is a universal motor, which are often rated on monentary current draw at stall. And yes, they do supply an absolutely massive amount of torque as they approach stall, so the rating is "kind of" fair... in that sense.

4 hp requires 24.5 amps RMS at 120VAC, with 100% efficiency and no voltage drop. Not happening!

Correct! They do the same thing with shop vacs and similar items. Claims of "developed" HP etc. Jobsite saws certainly are useful on the jobsite. They can be a great option if you lack the space for a dedicated shop.

 

[GrandpaSmurf825]

I agree with you about the PCS. I just can't justify the cost. I would also need to move this saw around some. Not constantly but often enough.

I would check Marketplace often. Used ones do come up for sale. That's how I got mine. Mine is on a mobile base but I haven't moved it since I parked it.

 

[dadohead]

My huge complaint with Saw Stop is, when they came on the scene, they tried VERY hard to get our government to REQUIRE the use of THEIR blade stop on EVERY new saw sold in the U.S., and guess who would have got rich off that!

^^^^True statement^^^^

 

[WinterDeere]

Correct! They do the same thing with shop vacs and similar items. Claims of "developed" HP etc.

Yep. A lot of people get all wound-up about this, but I actually think it's a reasonable ratings method, as it does a better job of leveling the playing field between different motor types than other methods. But it's worth understanding, whether for table saws or other machines:

1. Induction motors are mostly what you see in large stationary or industrial equipment, such as cabinet saws, etc. They are rated for horsepower based on actual maximum continuous mechanical output (torque x rpm) without violating the motor's insulation temperature rating inside of the listed duty cycle. It's the most "fair" ratings system, for a motor that develops maximum torque at ~20% slip, or ~80% of synchronous speed.

The problems with induction motors are weight and size for a given HP or torque, they're no good for portable equipment, and the fact that their torque absolutely crashes below maybe 50% synchronous speed. So, if your motor is a little undersized for your application, you'll notice the bottom completely falls out of it when it starts to slow down.

Most have probably seen this effect on any modern bandsaw, as nearly all of them are underpowered for resawing lumber, which is something nearly all of them are advertised to do now. You start feeding a 10" wide board into the thing, and it's pretty good a very slow feed rate, while motor stays up around 80% of synchronous speed. But as soon as you start feeding a little faster, and motor slows below maybe 60%, it just gives up the ghost.

That's because the rotor isn't spinning fast enough to induce any of the stator current onto the rotor windings. Just as you need a changing electric field to produce a magnetic flux, you need a moving magnet to induce any current. A stalled induction motor has near zero rotor current, and thus near-zero torque.

2. Universal motors, also called DC motors, are what you see in routers, shop vacs, and other portable equipment. They have brushes, and thus not built for long maintenance-free intervals like induction motors. But because they have brushes, they're not reliant on induced current in the rotor, you're actually pumping current right into that rotor thru the brushes and commutator. So, when these things are loaded and slow down, the bottom doesn't fall out, instead they only produce more and more torque.

So, it wouldn't be fair to rate these two types of motors, with nearly opposite torque characteristics, by the same method. For this reason, universal motors are usually rated according to stall current. They stall the motor and measure how much current the thing draws for a second or three before cooking the insulation off the thing. It is a true measure of what that motor can do, in the extreme case of a total stall, and of course HP will always be comp'd by RPM above a stall.

In a table saw, should the induction motor actually be properly large enough to never exceed ~30% slip at max load, the induction motor will "out perform" the universal motor. But the reality is that a 3 - 4 hp induction motor is just way too big and too heavy to hang onto a contractor's saw, and the current draw is too high for a standard NEMA 6-15 or even 6-20 plug and receptacle. The universal motor holds more advantages here, in that it keeps developing torque, even when you load the thing down and the blade slows considerably, and it can do it all within the ratings of most cord sets.

 

[Sawyer Rob]

I suspect most of my use for the table saw would be squaring the 4th edge after jointing and planing boards that are 5' long or less and/or cutting them to width, cutting glue ups to width and length and some precise cross cutting (would probably make a sled). I would probably cut drawer slots and maybe some rabbits, etc. So I don't know if a track saw would do all of those things.

Track saw and a router!

SR

 

[WinterDeere]

Track saw and a router!

This is the route I've gone, to a large degree. I started buying huge antique industrial woodworking equipment, because I could find it from closing foundry pattern shops and closing school industrial arts programs, cheaper than commercial-grade stuff. And I actually enjoyed refurbishing the old equipment, restoring it to like-new. But I didn't love using it. I'd much rather hand-cut dovetails than fixture them up on a table saw or even router jig, and I'd rather hand-plane boards than run them thru my old 16" jointer and 30" (oof!) planer.

I sold all of the big equipment except drill presses (still have 5 Walker-Turner 900-series), one 12" Parks planer, a 16" DeWalt GE radial saw, and one 32" Crescent bandsaw. I still own a Delta contractor's saw, in case I ever really need one, but I haven't used it in at least 15 years.

All of the greatest furniture on earth was made before the invention of the table saw, as was every structural and trim component in my house. I can get by without one, for my hobbyist and restoration needs!

I have 2', 4', and 8' extruded aluminum clamp-on straight edges for guiding a circular saw or router, when working with sheet goods. Nearly everything else gets done with hand tools, when possible. I'd much rather sweep up hand plane and chisel shavings, than be blowing sawdust out of my nose.

My radial saw has a 24" cross-cut, which is enough to make most of the plywood panels I need to cut for shipping crates for my business, after one initial rip cut using the aluminum straight-edge and sidewinder saw. I have a simple 14" compound miter saw and radial saw for most other lumber cross-cuts, and two bandsaws for ripping. All much nicer to run than any table saw, IMO.