Septic System Questions (long)

[AndyM]

I have the specs that the county requires for all systems installed in the county--

The trenches are to be 18-22 inches deep, with 6 inches of gravel below the pipe and two inches above the pipe. The pipe for the curtain drain must be at least 8 inches below the bottom of the trenches.

The water flows into the junction box through one pipe and there are two other 4 inch pipes leading either to the front or back leach fields. To prevent the flow from one side or the other, you put a 4 inch elbow over one of the pipes and point it up. Since the elbow is pointing straight up and the other side is just straight pipe, it will flow into the side without the elbow. When I looked at it the other day, it was rising up the extra four inches into the elbow that was pointed straight up instead of flowing into the lower one.

There's other areas on the property that probably would have been better to install it, but this guy does this for a living, and they say he's the best in the county. If that's the case, why did it fail inspection, have to be dug up and reinstalled, and now it's failing less than 9 months later??? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

 

[AndyM]

The county might be the better place to go first. However, after pulling out the warranty and reading, I find the following--

"Septic system shall be capable of properly handling normal flow of household effluent. Septic system shall be designed and installed to comply with state, county, or local regulations.

"Builder will repair if failure is the result of defective workmanship or materials. Builder will not be responsible for malfunctions which occur through owner negligence or abuse or from conditions that is beyond Builder's control, such as freezing, soil saturation, increase in water table, excessive use, etc. Owner shall be responsible for septic system maintenance."


What do you think-- go to the builder or the county first?

After the week I've had at work, I was thinking I could quit my job if I didn't have this house payment, but now I've got all these other problems to go with it too! /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif At this point, I wish I still had the little house in the city that was almost paid off! (but then I wouldn't need a tractor, huh?)

 

[PhilNH5]

Andy,
I would be leary of the city or county officials. I have posted here before about how I had a septic failure about 4 months after moving into new construction. A wet spring migrated through the field. When it surfaced the water was crystal clear but stunk to high heaven.
I called the county health department looking for help. They came out and put a flourescent dye in my pumpout tank. This showed up in the wet spring so they knew my septic field was the cause.
At this point I expect suggestions or help. Instead I was given a written health code violation which stated I must fix it w/in 90 days or the property would be condemned. This from the same fella who had approved the septic design and inspected it not 4 months earlier. I was really upset - more scared than mad as I feared losing the house. I don't think the property would perk anywhere else and I now think it never really passed in the first place.
So I did the unthinkable and spoke with a lawyer. We went after the builder who put in a curtain drain. A few months later the spring migrated again and went through the leach field. But I kept my mouth shut this time.

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( beyond Builder's control, such as freezing, soil saturation, increase in water table, excessive use, etc. )</font>

It looks like the builder has a built in escape clause - you certainly have soil saturation.

If you talk with the county you might want to do it annonymously at first.

Good luck and keep us posted.
Phil

 

[jfh230]

I think first you want to verify what the problem is. And that means someone doing a site inspection. If it is soil saturation then the one question I ask is who chose the location for the field? If it was the builder than I'm sorry but I don't care what language he has in his contract. Just show any judge the photo you posted here with the "pond" in front of the field and he is going to lose big time.

If the builder is legitimate and has a good reputation then he is going to do what is necessary to correct the problem. Good reputations are very hard to attain and destroyed in an instant. The last thing he wants to see is his name in the paper because of a court case. If it was my property I would proceed in this order:

Builder/designer
Privately hired engineer
Lawyer
County Health Officals

I would also go out and take photos of the area, discharge at the drainage ditch, and inside the junction box showing the effluent bypassing the elbow. Just in case you need them later.

Jack

 

[rims421]

Get your contractor back out here and have him install the system properley. First of all why should you inherit a pump system because of his mistake when you could have a gravity system. I know that over time pumps will require maint. or fail. I dont think you will have to worry about gravity letting you down. If the grade is right and you do not need one do not use one. If you have any doubts about your system get it inspected by a licsenced septic service. Try to find one that does not install or try to sell systems only does pumping and inspections. Just like you do when buying a house with an existing system. If there is a problem they will provide you with a report that will be very useful in negotiating with your contractor.

 

[Hakim]

Andy,

Sorry to hear about your septic problems. We had a real nightmare scenario a couple of years ago, and I know exactly the frustrations you are feeling.

The FIRST thing you need to find out FOR CERTAIN is, exactly what is causing the problem here. In my experience, the best shot is to hire a septic engineer licensed by your state. No doubt there are different levels of competence even with engineers, but these guys are infinitely more qualified to assess the situation and understand exactly where the problem is, and to suggest the best solution(s).

Even contractors with decades of experience do not have the skills and knowledge that an engineer has.

An analysis by a good septic engineer should cost around $400, and will provide a written statement as well as drawings needed for repairs. He will also perform any necessary perc or other tests. He also knows all of the codes and laws.

In general a licensed septic engineer will give you the FACTS you will need to 1) fix the problem and 2) get someone else to pay for it.

The LAST person I would ask to perform such services is a “home inspection” type service doing a “dye test.” Forget that. You need the next levels of expertise in this situation.

Once you have the detailed reports and recommendations from the septic engineer, you can then go back to the builder/contractor, or whoever did the installation.

It seems to me that the pre-existing standing water out front is a real issue. Still, he was to install a functioning septic system, regardless of the conditions. He failed to do so.

At the worst, you might have to offer to offset some of the direct costs of further repairs (some tons of rock, etc.). Maybe if the whole job would actually cost $5,500, you pay $1,000. And he eats the rest.

If he has been in business in the area a long time, he probably cares about his reputation and will "make good" in some way. Maybe you could “force” him to pay it all. But if he “balks” and tells you to get lost, you are forced the lawyer route, which will be a true nightmare on top of all that has already gone wrong.

Try to work with the guy to let him “finally” get it right. It seems like he has been pretty cooperative so far.

I agree that the last party to involve is the State. Tied with “last” is The Lawyers. Use only as a truly "last resort."

I also agree that if you can throw the switch and change the drainage to the back leech field, it may relieve your problem at least for the time being, and avoid a total shut down.

Good luck. Keep us posted.

 

[Egon]

Hakim:

Terrific reply on the septic system.

Egon

 

[Hakim]

Egon,

I wish everyone had the knowledge and expertise to match your level of answers. You have become really one of the standout TBN members, with such consistent and valuable input on a true myriad of issues. I am sure many others enjoy and benefit from your posts very much.

Septic systems are not at all like water and sewage in "the city." There are many factors that constantly bear upon the system, and matters like shifting of underground spring flows can drastically alter the functioning of any system.

At base you have 1,000 gallons or so of water and effluents that pour out of your house daily --- and they have to go SOMEWHERE.

My own personal "problem septic" appeared just a couple of months before we sold out last property in Upstate New York two years ago. We went round and round, receiving lots of advice and suggestions. It was a NY State Septic Engineer who finally figured out what actually was wrong.

We ended up spending nealry $8,000 on a brand new septic system just a month before we moved out. But, I am not the kind of person to "hide" such issues from a home buyer, and have him encounter the problem a week after he moves in?

Some of the "experts" did try to advise us how to "fool" the inspections and "hide" the problem until the house was no longer ours. Real estate laws now demand full disclosure of such issues.

I believe Andy CAN and WILL solve this problem. It is just a question of time & money. I really feel for him.

 

[AndyM]

Hakim and Egon,
Thanks for the words of encouragement, both in this thread and in the private messages. Also, thanks to everyone else who has responded. TBN and CBN is a wonderful group of people, and pooled together, are a wealth of valuable information. Not only that, but wonderful personalities also! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Tomorrow, I am going to let my fingers do the walking to find an engineer to check out this mess. If anyone knows a good local septic engineer, send me a PM.

I'm frustrated that a builder who builds 200-300 houses a year in a five county area has given us as many problems and headaches as they have! This isn't the first problem with the house (heck, it's not even the first problem with the septic system!), and I know it won't be the last, but we expected building a home to be MUCH smoother than it was. I've talked to others who have used this builder, and others who have used other builders, and I've come to the conclusion that having a house built is not as fun as it seems! /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

Also, I have found that the Ohio State University Extension Office web site has a ton of useful information on septic systems, and also on tractor safety. If anyone is interested, their Ag Engineering Fact Sheet Index is located here--
http://ohioline.osu.edu/aex-fact/index.html

Thanks again everyone!

 

[AndyM]

Here's a picture of the non-working junction box. You can see where the water is not flowing into the front field, and instead rising up and flowing into the bypass elbow for the back leach field.