Sewer Hookup and Backhoe

[EddieWalker]

Are you allowed to install your own sewer line?

Can you dig a trench with a solid bottom that slopes 3 to 6 degrees?

Can you dig a straight trench?

What pipe is required? If it's PVC, then gluingit is simple enough, but at that distance, it's probably going to fail. More then likely, it's going to be SDR35 or something like that.

How does the pipe have to be backfilled? Can you just put the dirt back in and compact it or does it have to be encased in sand and then jetted?

What liablity do you have if you cut something? How sure are you there there isn't anything in the way of your trench?

If you install it and there is a problem, who is responsible?

Eddie

 

[rsewill]

My opinion only, not jumping you at all, but one post prior that says it is EASY is VERY wrong. Sure, somethings can be easy but what will you do it there is a problem?

Oh it's easy! Anyone can do it, just lick it and stick it and call it good right? THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE for a skilled, journeyman, plumbing contractor. Ending up w/ a belly in the line, or no clean outs evey 135* of directional change, and of corse you will not test it / fill it w/ water and look for an issue...or will you?

What % grade will you lay it at? What will the base under the pipe look like? How many bolders will fall on it during backfill? Will you use shielded bands or all rubber? PVC, Vetrified Clay or ABS SDR??? How do you plan on making a PLUMB cut on the existing line? What are you going to do it you break the existing line when your cutting it? What are you going to do w/ the existing tank? There is a LOT more than lickin' it and stickin' it...

I am a professional plumbing contractor. 85% of my money is made fixing what the guy who knew enough about plumbing to be dangerous did, prior to me, because it was a handyman or a homeowner trying to save a buck.

If you do something wrong, who ya gonna call? HA! Betya, your homowners policy covers NOTHING outside the footprint of the home!

You going to get trench shoring or chance it? How deep is it? Exactly where is it? You going to permit the job?

Last week I Invoiced over $10,000.00 on a property w/ 600' of sewer, ONLY ONE CLEAN OUT instead of 6 or 7 or more depending. It was substandard workmanship, no excuse. It saved the plumber a LOT of money deleting all those 100' MANDATORY clean outs. HA! Ka-CHING! I made BANK fixing it.

(It's easy, anyone can do it! ) :laughing:

Think real hard before you tackle something like this.

I was an owner of a small excavating company who installed sewer and water to commercial buildings. When sewer and water was put into our home development I had it done by the local contractor who was doing most of the connections. Cheaper, easier, more convenient than if I had done it myself.

 

[JB4310]

I think it's a good opportunity to save some money on the shorter one anyway, like you said they have to inspect it anyway so they're not gonna let you do anything to stupid.

On the longer one, 2 extra feet of reverse grade is not usually an issue, but 400 feet is a not something to sneeze at, You usually need 4 feet of cover over the pipe, if you come out of the house at 4 feet deep, and maintain 1% minimum pitch, that puts you at 8 feet deep at the street, which is a serious excavation, add the 2 more feet to 10 deep and that is not a first time homeowner job. Like someone mentioned, you need to find out how deep the city sewer is, 10+ feet is pretty common, but it may be less.

Also, some areas require you to work in the right of way, that would complicate things. Around here they bring in what we call the lateral stub right up to the property line, so all the work is on private property.
Most likely you will use 6 inch gasketed sewer pipe (the green stuff) if you never worked with it before, it can be a little bit of a pita til you get the hang of it.

As far as pumping the septic tank, can't you do that after the sewer is in, or is it right in the way. I did a sewer hook up myself at my shop, this one was way to easy, being shallow and a short run, but I did have a septic, I just pumped the tank into the sewer, then cut right thru it to install the pipe.

Also did my own sewer at my house, actually I helped an experienced installer who is a friend, to save some money. when you start getting into 6-8 foot of digging you need a serious machine, not a "teaspoon" like my old timer buddy calls my little back hoe

JB

 

[tractchores]

I would vote for a rental mini excavator. Having done something similar myself using one i can say they are great machines. I would also advise staking out the trench and usung a laser to make sure its straight and to set pitch. To dig a long trench straight and properky pitched is very challenging without a lot of practice, but it can be done.

 

[CurlyDave]

I think the problem is going be that you really need to be able to do all three trenches for the project to make any economic sense, and the longest one is going to be the most challenging.

How deep must the shallowest part of the pipe be? I think you need to maintain a slope of ~1/4" per foot, which means the far end of the 200' run has to be 50" deeper than the start. If the start is 4' down you need 8' depth there, throw in any reverse slope on the land and you are going to be pretty deep. Much deeper than the capability of an add-on backhoe on a tractor.

Another question is who is going to do the final hookup to the lateral from the main sewer? Without shoring, I would not get in a trench anywhere near that deep. Open trenches are dangerous. A collapse can kill you, even in a shallow trench. Being buried up to mid-thigh can kill you if you stay there for any length of time, so trenches over about 4' really require shoring if you are going to enter them.

Then you have the question of how much time can you devote to this project? A 65' run might be a weekend job, a 200' run with a small hoe is going to take several days. If you are doing it on the weekends it could take a month. Think about the liability of having an open trench in your front yard for that long. Any kids nearby? They will walk miles to play in something like that, and then try to collapse sections. If one gets hurt it is your fault. You need to fence the project to keep them out.

I am retired, already own an industrial backhoe marginally capable of doing the work, and have enough experience operating it to think I could do the job. But even then I would be on the fence about the 200' run. I would probably opt to do the shorter ones myself.

Unless you have time to spare, and the willingness to get a much more capable backhoe than the one you are suggesting, I would recommend that you just bite the bullet and let a contractor do all the work.

P.S. The other issue which will come up is that the properties are all owned by "the family", but often issues of money can divide families. If you underestimate the costs and have to ask for more money, there may well be family strife. If everyone pays for their own sewer connection, this issue is avoided.

 

[ultrarunner]

P.S. The other issue which will come up is that the properties are all owned by "the family", but often issues of money can divide families. If you underestimate the costs and have to ask for more money, there may well be family strife. If everyone pays for their own sewer connection, this issue is avoided.

I agree with this one...

I actually enjoy working on my own property.

Had too many issues doing work for family and fiends...

Some have even thought I should do tractor work for free because it would give me more tractor time... by free, I mean shoulder the cost for fuel, transport, etc.

Remember... once you do a job for friends and family... you own it.

No matter what comes up years from now... you will be on their speed dial.

 

[JJZ 109]

Around here you are only responsible to run the line to end of your property. The municipality does the rest. If you have to actually tie it in and dig up the roadway it will be a different story.

That's kinds what I was thinking. In many cases, the property owner is responsible for the lateral and the municipality is responsible for the main and tying your lateral to into it. But I'm sure that varies widely from town to town.
Just ask the genius who hit his village water line while boring holes for deck posts how it goes in his town! :laughing:

 

[EddieWalker]

Federal law has somethng to do with the depth of sewage main lines, but there are some local variances to the rules. Once you come off of the main line, the rules on the depth change and you can get quite a bit closer to the surface. I'm not positive on this, but size of pipe also has something to do with the rules, but that might be more of a local part of it and not federal.

Eddie

 

[two_bit_score]

My opinion only, not jumping you at all, but one post prior that says it is EASY is VERY wrong. Sure, somethings can be easy but what will you do it there is a problem?

Oh it's easy! Anyone can do it, just lick it and stick it and call it good right? THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE for a skilled, journeyman, plumbing contractor. Ending up w/ a belly in the line, or no clean outs evey 135* of directional change, and of corse you will not test it / fill it w/ water and look for an issue...or will you?

What % grade will you lay it at? What will the base under the pipe look like? How many bolders will fall on it during backfill? Will you use shielded bands or all rubber? PVC, Vetrified Clay or ABS SDR??? How do you plan on making a PLUMB cut on the existing line? What are you going to do it you break the existing line when your cutting it? What are you going to do w/ the existing tank? There is a LOT more than lickin' it and stickin' it...

I am a professional plumbing contractor. 85% of my money is made fixing what the guy who knew enough about plumbing to be dangerous did, prior to me, because it was a handyman or a homeowner trying to save a buck.

If you do something wrong, who ya gonna call? HA! Betya, your homowners policy covers NOTHING outside the footprint of the home!

You going to get trench shoring or chance it? How deep is it? Exactly where is it? You going to permit the job?

Last week I Invoiced over $10,000.00 on a property w/ 600' of sewer, ONLY ONE CLEAN OUT instead of 6 or 7 or more depending. It was substandard workmanship, no excuse. It saved the plumber a LOT of money deleting all those 100' MANDATORY clean outs. HA! Ka-CHING! I made BANK fixing it.

(It's easy, anyone can do it! ) :laughing:

Think real hard before you tackle something like this.

There are many, many situations where a good plumber is well worth what you pay him!

But, I think he only wants to dig the trench himself and let the plumber do the rest.

.

 

[RFB]

The OP really needs to heed CurlyDave's warning: "Another question is who is going to do the final hookup to the lateral from the main sewer? Without shoring, I would not get in a trench anywhere near that deep. Open trenches are dangerous. A collapse can kill you, even in a shallow trench. Being buried up to mid-thigh can kill you if you stay there for any length of time, so trenches over about 4' really require shoring if you are going to enter them."

We all have a set of experiences, mine has been sort of like a line from a movie: "I see dead people....they are everywhere."

CurlyDave is not exaggerating whatsoever regarding the dangers. "Interesting" may be a poor choice of words to be speaking with a person for hours until you extract them from what many people would consider "no big deal", and then watch them die in front of you.

I don't know from where Dave learned, but he's right, and its just that easy. Been there, done that, got a gross of the Tee shirts.

 

[JB4310]

You can step the trench sides like a bench, or slope them off to avoid the use of shoring, which technically, by osha standards would be required at 4 ft. Not a standard very closely followed by most excavators, but that's the rule.
If the county inspector has to go down in there to inspect it, he's not gonna go in an unprotected trench.

http://www.osha.gov/dts/osta/otm/otm_v/otm_v_2.html

I thought it was 400 feet, but now I see the long one is only 200 feet. That still puts you down at around 8 feet near the street, with your reverse sloped topography. (using the 4 feet deep at the house and 1% pitch) That is a deep excavation, with alot of material to move, then add in the steps or sloped sides and you need a good sized machine. Definitely not a job for 3 pt back hoe.

Trench accidents are not something to ignore, if your gonna push the envelope you better know what your soil type is capable of. The guy who dug my house sewer that I showed in the picture in post 23, lost his father to a trench cave in when he was just a young man, he was on the job with him back in the 1950's when it happened.


JB

 

[MHarryE]

I bought my mini-excavator 3 years used 3 years ago and right now can sell it for more than I paid for it. Anyway a mini would be much better for putting in your lines than a backhoe attachment. Learned that from the guy who put in my water and spetic systems and has both. He said holding slope needed for drainage is so much easier to do with the mini. Since I got my mini I understand what he was telling me.

 

[Depmandog]

I wanted water out at our property, located just outside the city limits. Our other two neighbors had wells, and one other neighbor was planning to build. He needed water also.

I thought there might be a way to get city water, so I worked a deal with the city - we pay for the new main - install it per city spec, and can hook on for free - no tap fees, plus the city provided a hydrant.

So I went out for bids. Since we were paying, it didn't have to be a wage scale job. It was roughly 1/2 mile of 6" main, 3 bores under a highway (for service lines), 4 service lines, plus I had him run two frost free hydrants and about 400' of 1 1/2 line (oversized service) for our property.

Anyways, I had bids from 42k down to a buddy of mine who charged 16k. He had all of the equipment needed, big Trackhoe, boring machine, plus experience, etc.

Ok, this was 7 years ago - but the pricing hasn't increased that much. You have a year. You can find someone to do this quite a bit cheaper than $20 a foot.

You already heard from the professional plumber. He bragged about making BANK on a guy. Shop around, ask around. You have time.

What the others have said is true. This is gonna take a bigger machine. Plus working deep excavations will require a trench box or stepped excavation.

And our water line project was a success! When we negotiated with the city, anyone who taps into our line pays the 4 original property owners a $2k tap fee - $500 each. One has already tapped on to our line. So my cost for city water is currently at $3500. Lot cheaper than a deep well!!

 

[Coyote machine]

Say you get the tractor backhoe and do all the trenches, get all permits get inspected and get hooked up. Then a year from now you start having problems with one of the runs- say its the 200' reverse grade run. Who 'ya gonna call?! Yourself. Who's your family member 'gonna call? YOU!
Who's going to come fix it now that it's dead of winter and the ground's frozen and you sold the backhoe at a loss? Gonna find an instantaneous backhoe? Gonna take immediate time off work? How long do you think your family or your families family will wait to have a functioning system? A septic system takes a long time to become unusable. An error in one pipe going to the street takes immediate attention while your output to the city sewer is non-functional. So you saved how much doing it yourself?
If you contract it out to a reputable firm with lots of experience, get liability insurance certificates from their insurer, (standard practice to issue on a job like this), prior to their doing any work, on any of the properties, and have a signed, GUARANTEED, contract as to quality of workmanship, materials used, and time from install to end of guarantee period you have RECOURSE if something goes wrong, AND you have sleep at night peace of mind.
End of story ~ better to have a plan and work it, it will be money well spent in the long run. You can recoup costs when you go to sell, hopefully a long time from now.:thumbsup:

 

[two_bit_score]

Say you get the tractor backhoe and do all the trenches, get all permits get inspected and get hooked up. Then a year from now you start having problems with one of the runs- say its the 200' reverse grade run. Who 'ya gonna call?! Yourself. Who's your family member 'gonna call? YOU!
Who's going to come fix it now that it's dead of winter and the ground's frozen and you sold the backhoe at a loss? Gonna find an instantaneous backhoe? Gonna take immediate time off work? How long do you think your family or your families family will wait to have a functioning system? A septic system takes a long time to become unusable. An error in one pipe going to the street takes immediate attention while your output to the city sewer is non-functional. So you saved how much doing it yourself?
If you contract it out to a reputable firm with lots of experience, get liability insurance certificates from their insurer, (standard practice to issue on a job like this), prior to their doing any work, on any of the properties, and have a signed, GUARANTEED, contract as to quality of workmanship, materials used, and time from install to end of guarantee period you have RECOURSE if something goes wrong, AND you have sleep at night peace of mind.
End of story ~ better to have a plan and work it, it will be money well spent in the long run. You can recoup costs when you go to sell, hopefully a long time from now.:thumbsup:

The job will be inspected according to what he said earlier and he said he was only considering digging the trench and having the plumber do the rest.

It's not as easy as it sounds to dig a sewer line. But it's not impossibly difficult for someone who has the time, equipment and desire to go to the effort to do it correctly.

I would use caution regarding doing the work for the family members though.

 

[Coyote machine]

The job will be inspected according to what he said earlier and he said he was only considering digging the trench and having the plumber do the rest.

It's not as easy as it sounds to dig a sewer line. But it's not impossibly difficult for someone who has the time, equipment and desire to go to the effort to do it correctly.

I would use caution regarding doing the work for the family members though.

I read what the OP said about who was going to inspect the job, etc., AND having a year to prepare is great,. BUT it does not mean that even the best intentioned person with little to no experience in endeavors like what he wants to undertake can or will succeed regardless of level of desire. And it would seem the experts have all weighed in and a TLB is NOT the correct piece of equipment for this type of job. You know what is said about the road to h@l#, and how it's paved?!
Let's hear from the OP what if anything has rubbed off or sunk in about the drawbacks of this not for DIYers job.
He's asked for our advice, and I for one want him to consider what is the best case and worse case scenario regarding likely out come.

 

[jenkinsph]

Reading all the responses I thought I would clarify the amount of drop you need for the sewer line. For a residential sewer line most use a 4" pipe today and which is dependent on your locale. My preference is for 4" PVC schedule 40 BE (bell end) pipe in 20' lengths. Most plumbers and codes requirea fall for 4" pipe of 1/8" /ft of run. So for a 200' pipe run using 4" pipe you need 25inches of fall to the sewer tap.

Typically,
1 1/2" thru 3" pipe requires 1/4"/ft slope
4" pipe requires 1/8"/ft slope
6" pipe requires 1/16"/ft slope

Too much or too little slope can cause problems so I recommend you stay within the above parameters.

I should also mention that if you can get 13 inches of fall on the one with grade issues that I would rather install a 6" line rather than a lift station. Just depends on what you have to deal with.

 

[AGGIE00]

Say you get the tractor backhoe and do all the trenches, get all permits get inspected and get hooked up. Then a year from now you start having problems with one of the runs- say its the 200' reverse grade run. Who 'ya gonna call?! Yourself. Who's your family member 'gonna call? YOU!
Who's going to come fix it now that it's dead of winter and the ground's frozen and you sold the backhoe at a loss? Gonna find an instantaneous backhoe? Gonna take immediate time off work? How long do you think your family or your families family will wait to have a functioning system? A septic system takes a long time to become unusable. An error in one pipe going to the street takes immediate attention while your output to the city sewer is non-functional. So you saved how much doing it yourself?
If you contract it out to a reputable firm with lots of experience, get liability insurance certificates from their insurer, (standard practice to issue on a job like this), prior to their doing any work, on any of the properties, and have a signed, GUARANTEED, contract as to quality of workmanship, materials used, and time from install to end of guarantee period you have RECOURSE if something goes wrong, AND you have sleep at night peace of mind.
End of story ~ better to have a plan and work it, it will be money well spent in the long run. You can recoup costs when you go to sell, hopefully a long time from now.:thumbsup:

Having read this I can't understand why you own a car, much less a tractor. You can save yourself a lot of aggravation by hiring out a car and driver. And as far as tractor work goes you should definitely hire that out too. Think of all the things that can go wrong mowing your yard and plowing your garden. You shouldn't take that risk, but find someone bonded and insured to do it for you.

This is GRAVITY pipe, not pressure. As long as every fitting is properly glued, or gasket set, no worries on leaks. Besides, that is what testing is for. With a grade laser it is very easy to maintain grade, and 200' is not long. For a 4" service, which is what this would be, 1% is the standard here and less is not desirable and I have never run across a max for 4". The larger the diameter of the pipe the lower the minimum percent goes. It would be good to bed the pipe on sand or pea gravel which makes it very easy to fine grade. 200' at 1% is 2' of fall.

What is a reverse grade run? Would that mean you ran the laser the wrong way and sloped the pipe in the wrong direction? If so, that will be found when tested at the latest.

 

[AGGIE00]

Reading all the responses I thought I would clarify the amount of drop you need for the sewer line. For a residential sewer line most use a 4" pipe today and which is dependent on your locale. My preference is for 4" PVC schedule 40 BE (bell end) pipe in 20' lengths. Most plumbers and codes requirea fall for 4" pipe of 1/8" /ft of run. So for a 200' pipe run using 4" pipe you need 25inches of fall to the sewer tap.

Typically,
1 1/2" thru 3" pipe requires 1/4"/ft slope
4" pipe requires 1/8"/ft slope
6" pipe requires 1/16"/ft slope

Too much or too little slope can cause problems so I recommend you stay within the above prarameters.

I should also mention that if you can get 13 inches of fall on the one with grade issues that I would rather install a 6" line rather than a lift station. Just depends on what you have to deal with.

This guy knows what he is talking about and take his advice. I will also caution you to not overexcavate your trench unless you plan to bring it back to grade with bedding material and NOT clay. Over time the clay will settle and cause a belly in the pipe. You can rent a magnetic receiver to put on the boom of your mini to go with a rotating grade laser. This will give you an indicator for when you reach grade.

 

[JB4310]

Reading all the responses I thought I would clarify the amount of drop you need for the sewer line. For a residential sewer line most use a 4" pipe today and which is dependent on your locale. My preference is for 4" PVC schedule 40 BE (bell end) pipe in 20' lengths. Most plumbers and codes requirea fall for 4" pipe of 1/8" /ft of run. So for a 200' pipe run using 4" pipe you need 25inches of fall to the sewer tap.

Typically,
1 1/2" thru 3" pipe requires 1/4"/ft slope
4" pipe requires 1/8"/ft slope
6" pipe requires 1/16"/ft slope

Too much or too little slope can cause problems so I recommend you stay within the above prarameters.

I should also mention that if you can get 13 inches of fall on the one with grade issues that I would rather install a 6" line rather than a lift station. Just depends on what you have to deal with.

Around here it has to be 6 inch, which I would do regardless of local code especially for a 200 foot run. Pipe comes out of the house at 4 inch but immediately goes to 6inch. I would have at least 1 clean out about half way.

Also around here it's 1% minimum pitch, (technically a tiny fraction less than 1/8") once in even if it's not perfect there will be no problems, there rarely ever is with modern plastic sewers. also it has to be gasketed, no glued joints, another example of how it should be done regardless of what local code allows.

Do you know how many house sewers are just thrown in by the so called experts. You think they bed every pipe? As long as the end is lower than the beginning, there will be bellies and rises guaranteed, with little ill effect on the function of the sewer.

Many here are way over-thinking this, remember the plumbers creed, "hot on left, cold on right, **** flows down hill" That it! It's not a moon mission.

Main trunk sewer systems often do require a remarkable feat of engineering, but a house sewer doesn't.
The biggest challenge in this job is the excavation, and risks associated with deep trench construction. (may be the deciding factor in hiring the job out) But once that's taken care of, anyone who can put there pants on, can connect gravity drain pipes, may be a little struggle for a first timer, but nothing to be afraid of.

JB