Sewer Hookup and Backhoe

[jenkinsph]

JB,
If you noticed I used the term "depending on your locale" not everyone lives in your area.

Cleanouts, I prefer to place them every 90' of lateral line which allows a 100' sewer machine cable to overlap in the pipe. Most code requires cleanouts within 100'.

About the four inch pipe vs. the six inch pipe, as I recall a four inch pipe is rated for about 256 fixture units, that is plenty for a residence and in most locales is what is used.

About 1% slope vs. 1/8"/ft really amounts to the same thing. Conceptually it is easier for most people to relate to 1/8"/ft. I use a laser for jobs such as this but for lots of people bedding the pipe and using a 4' level it means they can tape a 1/2" scrap of wood to the end of the level downhill side and now just keep the level reading all the way down the pipe.

Good plumbers bed the pipe and get the grade right, my thought is the only time the pipe will be clean to work with is initially. Get it right the first time.

 

[JB4310]

JB,
If you noticed I used the term "depending on your locale" not everyone lives in your area.

Cleanouts, I prefer to place them every 90' of lateral line which allows a 100' sewer machine cable to overlap in the pipe. Most code requires cleanouts within 100'.

About the four inch pipe vs. the six inch pipe, as I recall a four inch pipe is rated for about 256 fixture units, that is plenty for a residence and in most locales is what is used.

About 1% slope vs. 1/8"/ft really amounts to the same thing. Conceptually it is easier for most people to relate to 1/8"/ft. I use a laser for jobs such as this but for lots of people bedding the pipe and using a 4' level it means they can tape a 1/2" scrap of wood to the end of the level downhill side and now just keep the level reading all the way down the pipe.

Good plumbers bed the pipe and get the grade right, my thought is the only time the pipe will be clean to work with is initially. Get it right the first time.

I agree and disagree

I agree 100% that you try to do the best job possible, especially if doing it for yourself. But from real world experience, I have seen the pros throw it in with reckless abandon and it still works. we jokingly refer to someone doing a "pipe dance" That's a worker jumping up and down on a pipe trying to meet spec. :laughing:

I totally disagree with using 4 inch pipe underground for just about any application, especially a 200 foot long house sewer. I would/ do only use 4 inch pipe for moderate storm water handling, and never 8 foot down.

And I guarantee you would go out of your mind trying to use a 4 foot level to lay 200 feet of sewer :confused2: with those tight tolerances. Like you mentioned, you need a tripod, check the bottom of the trench every 10-20 feet, that's it, once you get that there is no need for a hand held level.

The old timer I know does many sewer connections by eye, but he's been doing them for 50+ years.

I can't really agree with the good plumbers bedding the pipe comment. Good plumbers are usually standing on top of the trench drinking coffee while some hourly laborer is doing the dirty work.
My buddy has every possible plumbing certification, he said the big contractors hire him sometimes just cause they need his credentials on a municipal job. He said often times he doesn't even know anymore than the laborers doing the work, he stands around and talks to the inspectors/ engineers.

JB

 

[RoyJackson]

Good plumbers are usually standing on top of the trench drinking coffee while some hourly laborer is doing the dirty work.

JB

Yeah, I was the guy in the trench...

Back when I was doing plumbing, it was all cast iron work. As I wrote in my previous response to this thread, I hated working in trenches (mostly 8' or more in depth), especially after a rain. The muck would pull your work boots off (you know that nasty, sucking mud).
Also, the trench walls are real loose after a rain.
I was buried waist deep...once. A scary experience!! I would never get in a trench that wasn't properly shored and enough other folks around to rescue me should the walls give way.

 

[AGGIE00]

I totally disagree with using 4 inch pipe underground for just about any application, especially a 200 foot long house sewer. I would/ do only use 4 inch pipe for moderate storm water handling, and never 8 foot down.

And I guarantee you would go out of your mind trying to use a 4 foot level to lay 200 feet of sewer :confused2: with those tight tolerances. Like you mentioned, you need a tripod, check the bottom of the trench every 10-20 feet, that's it, once you get that there is no need for a hand held level.

Unless it is multifamily housing or large commercial, I have never seen 6" used for laterals. Our septic system collects from four different facilities on our property with the longest lateral being 180' of 4" glued pvc and cleanouts every 80' because of county requirements. After inspection I logged all the cleanouts with our survey equipment, so I can find them later if need be, and cut and capped them just above the tee. I find it unnecessary and a pain in the butt to have that many cleanouts in the way ready to be run over.

 

[ultrarunner]

It's interesting to see the variations...

The 8" clay line serving over a hundred homes runs through my land and where it crosses the ridge is 28' deep... it was the deepest residential line when it was done 50 years ago.

All the homes had 4" Clay and then Orangeburg from the house to the center of the street.

The preferred material is now heat welded Poly Ethylene... they said it is nearly seamless and more flexible offering some added benefit for earthquakes...

 

[JB4310]

Unless it is multifamily housing or large commercial, I have never seen 6" used for laterals. Our septic system collects from four different facilities on our property with the longest lateral being 180' of 4" glued pvc and cleanouts every 80' because of county requirements. After inspection I logged all the cleanouts with our survey equipment, so I can find them later if need be, and cut and capped them just above the tee. I find it unnecessary and a pain in the butt to have that many cleanouts in the way ready to be run over.

I've been pretty careful about saying "around here"

The only time I've seen 4 inch under ground is when they would run the cast iron straight to the septic tank, but those are usually less than 20 feet from the house. As long as I can remember house sewers, to the street have been 6 inch outside underground. First it was clay, then we went right to plastic. We never, as far as I've seen went thru the orangeburg phase. Many of the clay sewers are still in service, under roads and yards today.
Wicked heavy when you get into the 24+ inch size.

It's interesting to see the variations...

The 8" clay line serving over a hundred homes runs through my land and where it crosses the ridge is 28' deep... it was the deepest residential line when it was done 50 years ago.

All the homes had 4" Clay and then Orangeburg from the house to the center of the street.

The preferred material is now heat welded Poly Ethylene... they said it is nearly seamless and more flexible offering some added benefit for earthquakes...

Installing that clay sewer was a job that really did require pretty serious quality control, usually just 4 foot lengths, bedding was critical to avoid breakage and had to be mortared at every bell.
Zero flexibility, so any movement would loosen joints and allow roots to grow inside, especially house sewers thru treed yards, the power router guys have a pretty good business around here cutting roots in clay sewers.

I am not familiar with using welded PE pipe for sewers.

JB.

 

[KTurner]

Wow, I had no idea this would generate such a debate.

My line of thinking was that a used 3ph backhoe would hold its value pretty good for the six months to two years I would have it (depending on how quickly I could find one and how quickly I could sell it after I was done). I hadn't considered having to re-dig the whole trench at some point in the future. I guess I subconsciously assumed that issues could be uncovered and fixed with a shovel. Owning the backhoe for some period of time before the hookup day would allow me to get the learning curve out of the way before hand. If I rented, I wouldn't be able to do that unless I rented for extra days. But what I'm hearing is that a 3ph backhoe may not be enough machine to tackle this effectively.

By the way, the county project engineer assigned to this neighborhood sewer project told me that some people did do the hookups themselves (on similar projects he previously worked). And he did talk about some of the requirements (bed materials, etc). He certainly didn't mention anything like an 8' trench as that would definitely raised a red flag with me. At our elevation, 8' is halfway to sea level.

Oh yea, family = 95 year old Grandmother. I'm already responsible for maintenance, repairs, mowing, etc, so that part doesn't concern me much.

Time for the second phase. Get a copy of the plans and talk to a couple plumbers. Maybe they'll do a quantity discount or have other suggestions for cutting costs (via my elbow grease). I'm not sure how willing they'd be to talk numbers to me so far away from the install date.

Thanks for all the comments.
Keith

 

[ultrarunner]

I've been pretty careful about saying "around here"

The only time I've seen 4 inch under ground is when they would run the cast iron straight to the septic tank, but those are usually less than 20 feet from the house. As long as I can remember house sewers, to the street have been 6 inch outside underground. First it was clay, then we went right to plastic. We never, as far as I've seen went thru the orangeburg phase. Many of the clay sewers are still in service, under roads and yards today.
Wicked heavy when you get into the 24+ inch size.



Installing that clay sewer was a job that really did require pretty serious quality control, usually just 4 foot lengths, bedding was critical to avoid breakage and had to be mortared at every bell.
Zero flexibility, so any movement would loosen joints and allow roots to grow inside, especially house sewers thru treed yards, the power router guys have a pretty good business around here cutting roots in clay sewers.

I am not familiar with using welded PE pipe for sewers.

JB.

You are right about roots and clay... the city kept this in check with a product called Angus... it would "Burn Out" the roots and never a blockage.

They stopped using it maybe 12 years ago and now it is common to have 3 or 4 spills every year... most of the line is only accessible on foot so the 3 man crew drag steel rods... maybe 150' total length and manually auger the obstruction.

We've been told the line is scheduled for replacement for years... the cost keeps rising and it crosses under and over creeks as it makes it's way through some very steep terrain... the crews really like me because I've cleared 98% of the poison oak from my land... some manhole covers hadn't been seen in 40 years.

The PE comes standard in 40' lengths and the heat welded seams are supposed to be stronger than the pipe because it is slightly thicker... right now they are replacing a bunch of 8" clay with it... supposed to be the best solution and it can easily be pulled for hundreds of feet to minimize digging... what's not to like having fewer joints...

 

[EddieWalker]

Cleanouts, I prefer to place them every 90' of lateral line which allows a 100' sewer machine cable to overlap in the pipe. Most code requires cleanouts within 100'.

Here they requre to cleanouts to be no farther then 500 feet apart because you can get to anything in the line from either direction with a 250 ft line.

I agree that for a residential application, more cleanouts the better, and closer together is better, but I'm not clear why you would want to snake to go from clean out to clean out? Why not half way so you can still get to every part of the pipe, but not have any more cleanouts then needed?

Eddie

 

[jenkinsph]

I but I'm not clear why you would want to snake to go from clean out to clean out? Why not half way so you can still get to every part of the pipe, but not have any more cleanouts then needed?

Eddie

The reason for going cleanout to cleanout is most of us using cable equipment run a small stream of water down the cleanout as we rod out the line, keeps the cable cleaned off. Hard to make the water run uphill.

When you clear the blockage the water above it in the pipe flushes everything down the line and away. I turn up the water before I retrieve the cable to wash it off well.

If you use a jetter setup you would be running the opposite direction in most cases uphill. I only use my jetter setup on large government sewer systems.

 

[EddieWalker]

The reason for going cleanout to cleanout is most of us using cable equipment run a small stream of water down the cleanout as we rod out the line, keeps the cable cleaned off. Hard to make the water run uphill.

When you clear the blockage the water above it in the pipe flushes everything down the line and away. I turn up the water before I retrieve the cable to wash it off well.

If you use a jetter setup you would be running the opposite direction in most cases uphill. I only use my jetter setup on large government sewer systems.

Thanks.


Eddie

 

[AGGIE00]

The reason for going cleanout to cleanout is most of us using cable equipment run a small stream of water down the cleanout as we rod out the line, keeps the cable cleaned off. Hard to make the water run uphill.

When you clear the blockage the water above it in the pipe flushes everything down the line and away. I turn up the water before I retrieve the cable to wash it off well.

If you use a jetter setup you would be running the opposite direction in most cases uphill. I only use my jetter setup on large government sewer systems.

How much damage do you think a penetrator nozzle, fed by a large vac-tron, that found its way up a service lateral can do? Also imagine the operator believing he is hitting a blockage in the trunk line and not the interior plumbing under a house.

 

[jenkinsph]

How much damage do you think a penetrator nozzle, fed by a large vac-tron, that found its way up a service lateral can do? Also imagine the operator believing he is hitting a blockage in the trunk line and not the interior plumbing under a house.

On my way to learning the trade I once did about $11,000 dollars worth of damage to a residential bathroom with a Marco 3/4" cable machine. I didn't have to try that with a large jetter and penetrator nozzle. You could do more damage and alot faster too.

 

[ultrarunner]

On my way to learning the trade I once did about $11,000 dollars worth of damage to a residential bathroom with a Marco 3/4" cable machine. I didn't have to try that with a large jetter and penetrator nozzle. You could do more damage and alot faster too.

I always make an extra effort to add clean-outs when I doing installs because it might be me having to run a cable through some day.

Have to say, not a single problem with the plastic lines.

Had to replace a lot of cast iron... seems a lot of people use the acid drain cleaner and that stuff makes Swiss Cheese our of Cast Iron.

Roots are my biggest problems with Clay and Orangeburg.

My Spartan 300 with two drums totaling 225' of Magnum Cable and the hand held with 35 feet of cable have paid for themselves many times over.

I would have to go to a larger machine for any volume of 6" lines... never come across one yet.

 

[AGGIE00]

On my way to learning the trade I once did about $11,000 dollars worth of damage to a residential bathroom with a Marco 3/4" cable machine. I didn't have to try that with a large jetter and penetrator nozzle. You could do more damage and alot faster too.

My first job out of college was as a super for a very large sewer lining company out of St. louis. All lines were cleaned and tv'd before lining and we had a trouble line that required the penetrator. Had a crew end up with a lady running out of her house screaming that a monster was trying to come out of her toilet.

 

[JB4310]

Roots are my biggest problems with Clay and Orangeburg.

My Spartan 300 with two drums totaling 225' of Magnum Cable and the hand held with 35 feet of cable have paid for themselves many times over.

I would have to go to a larger machine for any volume of 6" lines... never come across one yet.

Around here I have never seen orangeburg used for sanitary sewers, only footing drains and other storm water systems, and I've never seen anything bigger than 4"

I would be very concerned trying to clear blockage from a wood fiber pipe, must be very easy to damage it especially with a power cutter.

I work in alot of basements doing drainage work, Many of the older homes have combination drains that allow storm water to discharge to the sanitary sewer through a 4 inch cast iron back flow valve and gas trap.
Obviously a terrible way to do things environmentally, but it eliminates the need for sump pumps.

Anyway I come across many homes with blocked sewers and have them call a company that I know is reasonably priced and gets there pretty quickly.
These guys come in with hand held equipment most of the time, a coil of spring snake inside and old tire casing and a large hand held drill. Most of these are less than 100 feet from the road, and some are only 50 feet.

They go through the clean out which is only ~3.5 inches, into the 4 inch house sewer, but like I said ours goes to 6 inch out side the house, they never seem to be there very long before they get it flowing again. This is going to happen mostly to those that still have the clay pipe. and some people have to have it done every 2-3 years.

I guess there is a little more room for less attention to detail using 6" compared to 4" sewer, more of a buffer for error?? Not talking about just cleaning, but in general.

JB

 

[jenkinsph]

Ultrarunner,
I hear you, I put in enough cleanouts to insure they won't be needed.
I have enough invested in sewer equipment to buy a nice sports car, what was I thinking? Spend a Saturday rodding sewer lines or take a ride through the mountains in your sports car.


Aggie,
In my case the cable did come up thru the toilet and beat the crap out of the entire bath room with high end Kohler fixtures. My boss wasn't real happy and the customer was really pissed. I can laugh about it now but it wasn't funny thirty years ago.

 

[jenkinsph]

Around here I have never seen orangeburg used for sanitary sewers, only footing drains and other storm water systems, and I've never seen anything bigger than 4"

I would be very concerned trying to clear blockage from a wood fiber pipe, must be very easy to damage it especially with a power cutter.

I work in alot of basements doing drainage work, Many of the older homes have combination drains that allow storm water to discharge to the sanitary sewer through a 4 inch cast iron back flow valve and gas trap.
Obviously a terrible way to do things environmentally, but it eliminates the need for sump pumps.

Anyway I come across many homes with blocked sewers and have them call a company that I know is reasonably priced and gets there pretty quickly.
These guys come in with hand held equipment most of the time, a coil of spring snake inside and old tire casing and a large hand held drill. Most of these are less than 100 feet from the road, and some are only 50 feet.

They go through the clean out which is only ~3.5 inches, into the 4 inch house sewer, but like I said ours goes to 6 inch out side the house, they never seem to be there very long before they get it flowing again. This is going to happen mostly to those that still have the clay pipe. and some people have to have it done every 2-3 years.

I guess there is a little more room for less attention to detail using 6" compared to 4" sewer, more of a buffer for error?? Not talking about just cleaning, but in general.

JB

I use a combination of powerfeed machines for the residential work because these are compact and easy to use without making a mess. Depends on what you are working on, sometimes it is a 1/4" cable other times up to 3/4" but having it either in the enclosed spool or in the pipe is alot neater than loose in a bathroom.

Most of this work is in the past for me, building landscapes is more appealing to me. I can say that with the better plastic pipes available the last forty years or so the need for this work is slowly diminishing, not near the trouble of the older cast iron and clay pipe with lots of joints.

Never installed Orangeberg but I have replaced lots of it, as it tends to flatten out with time.

 

[RaydaKub]

In my case the cable did come up thru the toilet and beat the crap out of the entire bath room with high end Kohler fixtures. My boss wasn't real happy and the customer was really pissed. I can laugh about it now but it wasn't funny thirty years ago.

Vent related, not drains, but my cousin worked for another uncle at an implement dealership. The uncle came in pretty shnockered fairly often. One day the vent pipe was iced over outside and the shop smelled of sewer gas. According to my cousin, this uncle went over to the vent pipe and poured some gas or something on the ice and lit it on fire to melt it off. (Must not have been on the roof - or maybe it was! ) Anyway, the idea worked really well, and melted the ice off the vent fairly quickly. Worked right up to that moment when the fire met the sewer gas.
WHOOMP!
The building is still standing today 40 years later, but they drew straws to see who had to get a big hose to clean the bathroom. Walls, ceiling, floor, everything was covered...

 

[tlbuser]

Our county is putting a sewer system in our neighborhood that we have to hook up to. Something about EPA and chesapeake bay pollution.

In the family, there are three houses that need to be hooked up (cha-ching). They said a general rule of thumb is $20/ft for a plumber to run the line from the house to the hookup point. One run ~65ft, one at ~100ft and the last at ~200ft. That's about $7,000. There's no significant obstacles that I can see (not heavily wooded, no major elevation changes). Not sure exactly how the water lines run, but thats what 'call before you dig' is for.

I have a Ford/NH 3230 (2wd, no remotes). I'm considering trying to find a used 3PH backhoe and getting the needed parts to run the hydraulics so that I can do the digging myself and save some money. This would be the first time I've ever done any digging work. I don't know that I'd have a use for the backhoe after this project, so I could probably sell it after I'm done to reclaim most of the purchase price - but keep the hydraulic remotes. I've thought about renting, but that would make me feel rushed to get the job done quickly. I would still need to either switch the line over myself, or find a plumber willing to do the job with me doing the trench. And the county require that the existing septic tank be pumped and filled/crushed/etc

Is this a really bad idea or a way to save some money (and add hydraulics to the tractor)? Any been-there-done-that words of wisdom? I have about a year to figure this out.

Keith

If this is Charles County, sounds like someone is feeding you some not so good info. Md. Dept. of the Environment controls the water and sewer permits. To make a tap connection to any county water or sewer service, a licensed and bonded plumber is required to obtain a permit. With that being said, you could still trench and lay the pipe, etc., it will just depend on the contract with the plumber. It has been possible to pay the tap fees and not hook up to the county system if the current system is completely functional and not showing any signs of failure. (dependent on where in the county the property lies)

4" sch. 40 or sdr35 is acceptable for residential installs. No DWV. Call before you dig doesn't do a locate on non-public utilities. Some of the older neighborhoods have their own water systems, if so, you will have to do a locate yourself.