Shared Roads and other issues.

[CurlyDave]

But if the energy company, water company, etc need to get onto that easement, they can do whatever they need to whatever you've built on it.

I have always thought that they had even more power. If they need to get in, they can tell you to remove whatever you have built at your expense.

But, I am not a lawyer.

In many of these cases, some creative thinking is required.

The OP needs to see a lawyer, he might need to send a letter to "A" telling him to get off the property. OTOH, if he sends the letter and "A" ignores it, it is going to get expensive. Possibly more than the 20' strip of land is worth. And, at that point "A" is in adverse possesion. Maybe there is something he can do to prevent adverse possesion and avoid a fight.

I have a similar situation. I bought 40 acres, from someone who is still a neighbor and rapidly becomming a friend. Almost immediately one of the other neighbors told us that there were persistent rumors that the parcel wasn't really 40 acres.

Since what we wanted was privacy and a view sight, whether it is 35 or 40 acres doesn't bother me a whole lot, but it might make a difference to the county which requires a 40 acre parcel to build a house. So, we didn't have it surveyed. We just applied for the permit and it was issued based on the description in the deed. Now, if sometime after the house is built, we have it surveyed, and it is short, the house will be grandfathered in. But, if we never have it surveyed, we never have to deal with the problem.

I am still thinking about what to do, but may very well decide to wait many years to have a survey done, if ever. It would be shame to have an unnecessary fight.

 

[MikeD74T]

Unless you have an agreement otherwise, it would seem that each should pay for what they use. A uses 1 section, B uses 2 sections, & C uses 3 sections. A should pay 1/6th, B 1/3rd, C 1/2 of the total cost.

 

[marks]

Here in CA if there are not governing documents for road maintenance i.e. CC&Rs and associated agreements, the CA Civil Code addresses the issue of shared expenses. I too have been down this long and tiresome road, don't loose sight of the fiscal and emotional turmoil that could be generated...

 

[sanmigmike]

Reading the covenant on the road repair seems to say that all three of us have an easement on all the properties for access. It also seems to say that we split the cost three ways for the total road. However last time I checked I was not a lawyer.

What neighbor C does not like and neither do I is that the road on A's section is so bad that the newspaper and other delivery people refuse to use it. Been that way before we had our property logged (about 18? loads) and the neighbor's two or three loads. Except for that logging we run the normal cars and a small pickup. Other neighbor has dually one ton and a Range Rover and a mini van and a Volvo, not that big of deal. Neighbor A runs a fair sized box van (26,000 gw) and the road has big holes in the areas the box van uses. He blames us for the road problems and seems to feel we should pay more for the use....at the same time he makes no mention of using our land. Our other concern is that the road actually be put in good shape, not just some gravel thrown in the holes, we all know that is really a waste of time. There is a short asphalt apron next to the public road and I noticed today that his mower had taken a large chunk out of it, not sure how he did it but I will guess that he will either try to blame us for it or ignore it as damage.

Easement, right now except for trees there is nothing stopping twenty feet access along the existing road. I don't think that is a problem however if the previous problem indicates anything it would violate that easement to put something in that would block it.

With luck will see a lawyer in a week or so, waiting for the call back!!

As an aside we chatted with a real estate agent that is selling the property on the other side of my and my other's neighbor's property. She told us that the stakes out there now are right on the property line, C's property and we know that ours is a twenty foot strip twenty feet in. She said that she had already had a run in with A about the property line...and it isn't even his property line. LOL He has run his rows of grapes right against the other property so that if the new owners fence it, and if we didn't make a stink about him being on our land he still would not have room to turn a garden tractor around, the guy wires from the stakes are right on the property line. Poor and dishonest planning on his part in my opinion!

I do get the drift that it might be expensive to get him off of our land. The first phone coversation with a lawyer seemed to indicate that in Oregon most juries do take ownership serious. With him there I really do not want to give up a chunk of land I might need at some point for access and also that is land that I am paying the taxes on...

Never been on a civil jury but have spent time on criminal juries. When I have seen civil suits at times the jury does seem to go crazy but it seems to frequently be due to either a lawyer or his client pissing them off or treating them like idiots. Grand Jury is a lot more fun, interesting...and painful.

The sad fact is that easements are a fact of life, ones you don't really have a choice and others that you don't like but the time to have faced that issue is when you bought the property. I had questions but was assured by various people that I should not worry. I can only say that the next time we buy...we will have our own private access to a public road or highway.

"C" isn't a problem and as long as I stay up on my road I don't feel any heartburn from them using it. Yes, she drives too fast but not as fast as she used to. They don't do much to bother us and they shoot off fireworks and so on about the times we do. It will be more interesting when their kids start driving but that is a few years away. It would not occur to me to insist they ask permission to use a road they have an easement on...

Live and learn and if it wasn't for the other thread I would not be acting now so I am happy to have seen it even though I don't understand how what happened happened.

 

[dmccarty]

sanmigmike,

Since you have a tractor with a boxblade why don't you just fix the road? We live on a private road that is about 2400 feet long. When it starts to get a bit rough I rip the road up with the box blade and smooth it back down with same. I have been surpised at how seldom I have had to do this. I figured it would be a yearly chore but I have only done it twice in six years.

We have 11 cars in five houses using the road. One neighbor will put down limestone in potholes which has worked real well and has been another surprise. He and I are the only ones that maintain the road. A third neighbor mows. While the fourth neighbor is just a rude and royal pain in the ....

We do need to have a plan to collect money for the road. If we put down some more gravel it would solve some problems but the road is in great shape with very minimal work on my part.

You definately need the lawyer for the other issues. And I would ask if you can just fix the road yourself. What is the guy going to do? Sue you for fixing the road that everyone uses?

I have had several property line issues with neighbors. Nothing severe but enough to be a pain. My wife is a real estate broker and she was putting up a sign last week on some raw land she is selling. The neighbors son, he is in his 40s, ran over to tell her that the sign was on his land. Well it was not and the sign went up. The son and his father have a bad reputation. One of the sellers, its an estate kinda of a sale, heard through the family about the issue with the sign. He called up last night and applogized about the neighbors bad behavior. He said he would take care of the problem. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif I guess they have been dealing with their neighbors for a couple of generations and have a system worked out. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Its so sad that you see these issues all of the the country.

Later,
Dan

 

[MarkV]

Shared roads are a pain sometimes. Never again for me. We own some property that has a private road with many more parcels accessing it than yours. Like yours the deeds for the properties have instructions for shared maintenance costs of the one mile road. It has been impossible to enforce that part of the deed. After years of putting band aids on a road that needs major surgery the small group of us that have tried to keep the road useable consulted a lawyer to see how to get everyone else to pay up. The bottom line was we would have to sue each property owner individually. The lawyer actually laughed and told us it would be cheaper to pave the road ourselves and give everyone else a free ride.

I suspect you will find you’re in the same situation with “A” as we are in. I think I would approach “A” and let him know that because you cannot get certain public services because of the condition of the road you and “C” are going to fix and maintain it even if “A” isn’t able to contribute at this time. When he says you can’t, I would calmly tell him you were not sure what the easements were, what their restrictions were and what everyone’s responsibly for the road was yourself so you checked with your lawyer. Then say that the lawyer is going to write a letter outlining the easements and restrictions for everyone to have so there will not be any misunderstandings if anyone were to sell in the future. Throw him a bone and let the grape thing go unless you need to use that space. The letter will show that they are on your property. Don’t ever let a permanent structure be built on it though. If he still objects I would ask what part of a new and maintained road at no cost to him he objects to.

I was unclear about one part of the way you describe the property. Are you saying that the road on the South side is an easement through each of your properties and you and “C” each own, not an easement, a 20’ wide strip on the North side of “A’s” property? If that is the case you understand that you and “C” can have an easement agreement drawn up to put your own road down the middle of that 40’ and eliminate “A” from the equation altogether with a fence. Might be more expensive but would help your resale value and eliminate a long term problem. At the very least I would imply that if “A” is going to be a problem when it comes to fixing the existing road you and “C” will go to plan B with a new road and “A” is out of luck when it come to using that 40’. That should add some punch the conversation that we ARE going to fix and maintain this road.

Good luck, hope you will let us know how it works out. I’d put in my own road so that someone like myself who has lived on a shared road would be attracted to the property when you want to sell. Shared road, never again for me!

MarkV

 

[marks]

Mike,

Just one more thought, years ago when I was a landlord and would initiate the eviction process, I'd then offer the tenant a small sum of cash to move-on and not destroy my property. Some people would think I'm crazy, and rightly so, however in the long it seemed to work out for the best. Hence does 'A' have any other access options available, or for yourself? Easements sometimes can be purchased from adjoining parcels. Look at all the avenues.

 

[sanmigmike]

Update: I was all for the attorney handling it but our other neighbors said that our Austrian was a reasonable man.

So yesterday we went down and talked to him. I started off my side of the discussion with the basic idea that the cost of the road is one of the conditions on the all three of the deeds and that the dollar amount of the limit is way too low. He started to get upset when he realized that the road costs and how to share them are already written down. Then he says that in the "good old days"....before our other neighbor moved here four years ago...all three of them would pay $300 each and he would take care of his portion of the road. I would guess that $900 would buy a lot of gravel for his less than 300 foot road eight or so years ago. The first problem I have with that is that the people we bought this place from were very short on cash and it shows in so many ways, so I don't see how he was getting $300 a year out of them. Second he has a much smaller tractor than I have and only a scraper blade. No means to tear up the big pot holes so I don't see how he is going to be able to really fix his portion of the road. Third, is that for what ever reason the paperwork says to me that the road costs are divided between the three of us equally and that we all have access to the south 20 feet of the road. It seems to be if indeed this was happening he was getting $600 a year from his neighbors and buying a load of gravel for his portion and keeping the rest...

Then I mention that there is indeed an easement across all three parcels and it is on all of our deeds. "How did you get a copy of my deed!?!?" Simple I tell him, it is public record. He didn't like that idea that I bothered to get all of our respective paperwork or the fact that there is indeed a easement. (Read the Fxxxxxx paperwork!)

The whole point of me getting all the paperwork was to make sure that we all had the same conditions on easements and costs and so on.

Then I mention that he seems to be growing grapes on our land and he didn't ask or tell us, a point with me since he made a big deal of insisting we ask permission to drive on the easement. He starts first to say that he had an arrangment with the old owners. Then changed to say that none of his grapes or anything else is on our property. Two problems with that are that he owns property on both sides of the "flag" portion of our and our other neighbor's flags, there is no 40 foot gap between his grape vineyards. The second is that the lot next to the road was up for sale and had been surveyed. Unless they are taking our combined 40 feet he is on our land since he has his grapes right up to that property line. Right up to the point he turns his little tractor around on the neighbor's property not on his, the grape fixtures go right to the edge of the other person's property.

Now I had gone down there with the idea of all I wanted was to get a piece of paper from him that would state that he had no intention of making a claim on our property now or in the future and he could continue to use it as long as he paid us a small amount per year, the % of the taxes since he is getting about 3/4 of an acre and when you combine that with our other neighbors 3/4 of an acre that is a big increase to his six acre parcel and gives him easy access to his other property.

The second idea of paying reasonable portion of the road cost as long as it was really taken cared of rather than scrapping the surface and throwing a few shovels of gravel in the several more than 6 foot in diameter potholes seems to be lost too.

He said that if I get that portion surveyed that he will indeed move his grapes....if any are on my land.

So, the end result right now is the road isn't getting fixed and we are going to be out the cost of a surveyor. However after we get the property line marked we are putting up a fence and he will not be able to use that land...I don't trust him and feel that to be blunt he is a liar and not at all honorable.

So, read all that paperwork when you buy...know what you are getting and what you are responsible for...

Oh, to add to the fun my daughter had a resident fall while she was being lifted (it is a no lift facility so the resident shoud not be there), damaging her (my daughter's) wrist again, just a little over a she hurt the same wrist at another job. At least workmen's comp covers it and the resident was not injured. But she will have to be moved since she doesn't belong there.... So another night in the E-room.

 

[sanmigmike]

Update: I was all for the attorney handling it but our other neighbors said that our Austrian was a reasonable man.

So yesterday we went down and talked to him. I started off my side of the discussion with the basic idea that the cost of the road is one of the conditions on the all three of the deeds and that the dollar amount of the limit is way too low. He started to get upset when he realized that the road costs and how to share them are already written down. Then he says that in the "good old days"....before our other neighbor moved here four years ago...all three of them would pay $300 each and he would take care of his portion of the road. I would guess that $900 would buy a lot of gravel for his less than 300 foot road eight or so years ago. The first problem I have with that is that the people we bought this place from were very short on cash and it shows in so many ways, so I don't see how he was getting $300 a year out of them. Second he has a much smaller tractor than I have and only a scraper blade. No means to tear up the big pot holes so I don't see how he is going to be able to really fix his portion of the road. Third, is that for what ever reason the paperwork says to me that the road costs are divided between the three of us equally and that we all have access to the south 20 feet of the road. It seems to be if indeed this was happening he was getting $600 a year from his neighbors and buying a load of gravel for his portion and keeping the rest...

Then I mention that there is indeed an easement across all three parcels and it is on all of our deeds. "How did you get a copy of my deed!?!?" Simple I tell him, it is public record. He didn't like that idea that I bothered to get all of our respective paperwork or the fact that there is indeed a easement. (Read the Fxxxxxx paperwork!)

The whole point of me getting all the paperwork was to make sure that we all had the same conditions on easements and costs and so on.

Then I mention that he seems to be growing grapes on our land and he didn't ask or tell us, a point with me since he made a big deal of insisting we ask permission to drive on the easement. He starts first to say that he had an arrangment with the old owners. Then changed to say that none of his grapes or anything else is on our property. Two problems with that are that he owns property on both sides of the "flag" portion of our and our other neighbor's flags, there is no 40 foot gap between his grape vineyards. The second is that the lot next to the road was up for sale and had been surveyed. Unless they are taking our combined 40 feet he is on our land since he has his grapes right up to that property line. Right up to the point he turns his little tractor around on the neighbor's property not on his, the grape fixtures go right to the edge of the other person's property.

Now I had gone down there with the idea of all I wanted was to get a piece of paper from him that would state that he had no intention of making a claim on our property now or in the future and he could continue to use it as long as he paid us a small amount per year, the % of the taxes since he is getting about 3/4 of an acre and when you combine that with our other neighbors 3/4 of an acre that is a big increase to his six acre parcel and gives him easy access to his other property.

The second idea of paying reasonable portion of the road cost as long as it was really taken cared of rather than scrapping the surface and throwing a few shovels of gravel in the several more than 6 foot in diameter potholes seems to be lost too.

He said that if I get that portion surveyed that he will indeed move his grapes....if any are on my land.

So, the end result right now is the road isn't getting fixed and we are going to be out the cost of a surveyor. However after we get the property line marked we are putting up a fence and he will not be able to use that land...I don't trust him and feel that to be blunt he is a liar and not at all honorable.

So, read all that paperwork when you buy...know what you are getting and what you are responsible for...

Oh, to add to the fun my daughter had a resident fall while she was being lifted (it is a no lift facility so the resident shoud not be there), damaging her (my daughter's) wrist again, just a little over a she hurt the same wrist at another job. At least workmen's comp covers it and the resident was not injured. But she will have to be moved since she doesn't belong there.... So another night in the E-room.

 

[pennwalk]

Is it possible that there are stakes or pins marking the property corners? I believe that it is a lot less expensive if the surveyor comes in and locates existing pins as opposed to a real survey.

Chris