Short Run of 'Different' PT-425

[toolz_not_toyz]

Re: Short Run of \'Different\' PT-425

</font><font color="blue" class="small">(
"" I would make them take it back. ""

Please provide detailed instructions on how to do this!! )</font>

If they don't want to do it, hire a lawyer. You just need to prove that the design is fundamentally flawed and exposes the user to an unreasonable level of risk. In a way, PT may have already acknowledged the problems with the design because they reverted to a prior design for newer models.

Essentially, what you would want them to do is either exchange (replace) your PT for a newer model or correct the model that you have (repair). A car manufacturer would issue a recall notice citing a potential for an engine compartment fire. I'm sure you've seen or heard about those. Basically, it's up to PT if they want to reduce their exposure to a potential tort action for gross negligence. They can wait for someone's PT to blow up (bad) and potentially injure someone (worse) or they can be proactive and correct the situation. In fact, just acknowledging that there is a problem and offering some way to help (by fixing) or at least warning the consumer of a potential problem would be a wise step on their part.

</font><font color="blue" class="small">(
"" I just can't understand what they were thinking when they did this. ""

Maybe that it would be safer than having a large PLASTIC jug of gas under the cover next to the engine and battery!! )</font>

I agree that the a steel fuel tank is better than a plastic fuel tank. But I think the danger would not be less severe with either tank design in the event of an engine compartment fire. We're primarily concerned with the gaseous state (vapor) of the fuel than the liquid. Boiling fuel will probably be accompanied by expansion and vapor and that is what's going to blow up.


</font><font color="blue" class="small">(
"" How are they venting the gas tank? ""

It vents when pressure inside builds up. When the engine is shut off hot, you can hear the cap hissing for several minutes. )</font>

While that's an appropriate setup for non-flammable liquids (a radiator full over boiling coolant comes to mind) it may not be appropriate for this application. Clearly, if the cap fails to vent (as it probably did for the original poster) you get into a very dangerous situation when removing the cap to refuel. The fuel tank should be permanently vented.

Another problem with a venting cap and a fuel tank that moves with the engine cover is that fuel could potentially spill out of the closed cap whenever opening the engine cover.

As for the often mentioned tip about not refueling when hot... Well that's great advice for anyone that's got a small job at hand. I go through at least 6 gallons of gas when mowing my lawn now. I'm not willing to interrupt that that chore so I can let my equipment cool down before I refuel. Furthermore, as a machine that's supposed to be approved for commercial use, to me that translates into being able to run it non stop for at least 8 to 10 hours. Not much opportunity to let it cool down for refueling there.

While I agree that there are ways to minimize the risk of an event with these particular machines, it is entirely inappropriate and unacceptable to expose people to this level of risk in the first place. What is really unfortunate is that it would probably only take one law suit for PT to decide to get out of this segment all together. And then where would we all be??

 

[catsco]

Re: Short Run of \'Different\' PT-425

You wrote:

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Quite honestly, if it was me and I had received this design iteration (which I continue to think is fundamentally stupid) I would make them take it back. It's really just an accident waiting to happen and I just can't understand what they were thinking when they did this. While a heat shield may partially correct the problem it will never fix the fact that fuel can spill onto the hot engine.

Question: How are they venting the gas tank?

)</font>

Thanks for the reply. Although it is not stated in the manual (and there's a LOT that's not /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif) TBN members with this configuration suggest having the cover open when refueling; there is a line below the gas cap opening when the cover is open that indicates a 'full' level, I think.

The gas cap opening is at the FRONT of the fuel tank when the cover is closed, and at the TOP of the fuel tank when the cover is open, so it cannot be overfilled when open, and fuel will not spill with or without the fuel cap on when filled this way.

Unless, of course, it is boiling.

The gas cap is NOT vented; I just spoke with Scott at PT who believes it should be, and will check with Terry and send me a vented cap.

That should end the pressure and boiling issue.

I'm thinking that refueling even when the tractor is very hot might be safer with the steel tank (engine cover open) at the rear so if fuel is spilled, it can't get to the enginer, muffler, or anything that would ignite it. Vapors are also further from hot parts with this configuration.

What do you think?

 

[catsco]

Re: Short Run of \'Different\' PT-425

PJ--Thanks for the reply. You wrote:

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I have the same model as you and Fourteen.
I have never had a problem fueling for these reasons.
- never fuel with cover up (how would you do this?)
- fuel with funnel
- fill only to 3 inches from top
I have been very surprised regarding comments from others that they have had problems.
)</font>

I do the same as you with no problem, just the one big surprise horizontal geyser (cover open for safety) on a hot day. Wouldn't dream of filling with the cover closed except when totally cold on a trailer at a gas station.

See my reply above regarding venting - - my cap has no pressure relief of venting that I can see. There is therefore a LOT of pressure. If Terry sends a vented cap, that will probably stop the boiling when the pressure is relieved.

Mark H.

 

[FOURTEEN]

Re: Short Run of \'Different\' PT-425

/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

You said to PJ: "I do the same as you with no problem".

But you: "Wouldn't dream of filling with the cover closed", and PJ: "- never fuel with cover up (how would you do this?)
- fuel with funnel"!!

/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[pajoube]

Re: Short Run of \'Different\' PT-425

Interesting.
I must have a vented cap as I have not seen boiling fuel. As far as fueling with the cover closed I have never done it any other way but then I always use a funnel.
PJ

 

[pajoube]

Re: Short Run of \'Different\' PT-425

I just went out and checked my fuel system after reading what others are doing. Again, I do not understand how one would fuel with the cover open and get the same amount of fuel in the tank as when fueling with the cover closed. Also, the ease of fueling with the cover closed (and using a funnel) is far greater than trying to fuel at an angle with the cover open.
I looked at all the material from PowerTrac (not much) and found no reference to fueling with the cover open. How did the rest of you come to this method of fueling?
PJ

 

[dsmith3]

Re: Short Run of \'Different\' PT-425

When it warmed up this spring, I couldn't figure out where the burned gas smell was coming from. I finally realized that, when really hot, the cap was venting liquid gas onto the top of the tank. Not much, just a little sheen and maybe it was just vapor.

When operating or shutting down, I'll periodically unscrew the cap a little to vent the gas vapor out before it does it on it's own.

I also have learned to fill the gas tank with the cover open.

 

[FOURTEEN]

Re: Short Run of \'Different\' PT-425

"" hire a lawyer ""

At the hourly rate that lawyers charge, I could buy a new PT with the tank relocated, or replacement parts to revise my PT, a lot cheaper and quicker!!


"" just need to prove that the design is fundamentally flawed ""

Is it?? Most tractors and lawnmowers, new or old, have their fuel tanks located above and adjacent to, or even mounted on, the engine!! Tractors typically, front to rear, are radiator with cap on top, engine with exhaust upward, fuel tank with cap on top, dash, steering wheel, then seat!! I can not remember ever seeing a small rotary lawnmower that didn't have its fuel tank mounted directly to the top side of its engine!!


"" exposes the user to an unreasonable level of risk ""

How is the risk greater with the PT than with the typical tractor, ATV, motorcycle, or lawnmower, most of which have the fuel tank located over the hot engine!!


"" PT may have already acknowledged the problems with the design because they reverted to a prior design for newer models ""

I have seen no such acknowledgement! Designs are constantly being changed for numerous reasons, many having nothing to do with safety!
We do not know the reason for this design change.
However, since creating a fuel tank out of welded plate steel by skilled in-house welders is obviously more costly to PT than just buying an OTC plastic jug, I would not be surprised if the reason was simply economic!


"" exchange (replace) your PT for a newer model ""

A claimed design defect in a minor bolt-on part would not justify receiving a whole new tractor!!


"" warning the consumer of a potential problem would be a wise step on their part ""

The golden rules of tort are:
1) Admit nothing!
2) Deny everything!
3) Make counter accusations!


"" steel fuel tank is better than a plastic fuel tank ""

Actually a stronger case could be made against a plastic tank vented inside the engine compartment than against a steel tank vented to the outside air!


"" vapor and that is what's going to blow up ""

Gasoline vapor must be mixed with air in about a 1/14 ratio to explode. Outside the vapor is continually being disbursed and mixed with large amounts of air. Inside the tank, particularly during refueling, it is full of just vapor, lacking the fuel/air mix to explode. The heavy steel tank in the cover is of such construction that it would most likely remain intact even if a tank explosion did somehow occur! A large flame would shoot upward, followed by a small nearly harmless fire surrounded by steel and supported only by the vapor available to be mixed with air at the tank opening! An explosion, or fire, in the plastic tank would most likely rupture the tank creating a huge fire under the PT!


"" it is entirely inappropriate and unacceptable to expose people to this level of risk in the first place. ""

Having used this model PT-425 for 130 hours, and operated countless other tractors, lawnmowers, ATVs, and motorcycles, I can find no additional risk during refueling if normal standard safety practices are employed!
I highly doubt that Power Trac intended that the owner refuel with the cover open! I do not put my ATV up on its rear wheels and rear rack to fill its tank from the side! I have never seen a motorcycle laying on its side at the gas station while the rider fills the tank from the side rather than from the top!

It would seem that owners are actually putting themselves at greater risk by the unusual practice of raising the cover and fueling from the side!! Just because it can be done, does not mean that it should be done!!
(Note that the dangerous events described by CATSCO in the first post occurred while he was attempting to refuel using the non-standard position of cover up!!)

Perhaps a letter to Power Trac requesting that they specify the correct position of the cover during refueling would be appropriate!!

/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Clarke]

Re: Short Run of \'Different\' PT-425

I agree with Fourteen. I can't imagine fueling a PT with the hood open trying to manage the funnel and gas can. As I said in an earlier post go to the store and get the new fueling nozzle. I have seen them in the box stores as a separate item to add to your existing fuel can.. This way you can throw your funnel away and fuel with the hood closed. With very little care you will not spill even one (1) drop of fuel.

sg

 

[MossRoad]

Re: Short Run of \'Different\' PT-425

What's so difficult about fueling in either position?

If the hood is down, use a large funnel or the spout you suggest.

If the hood is up, the spout from the fuel can should work just fine by itself, I would think.

Either way, just follow standard safety precautions when handling gasoline, like waiting for the engine to cool a bit, don't smoke, etc... When I got out of high school I worked full time for seven years at two airports re-fueling aircraft with various fuels to put my self through school, so I have probably handled it more than most folks. In all the time that I can recall, in all the equipment that I have fueled, I have never personally known anyone that had a fire, flare up or problem, with the exception of one idiot that worked for me who attempted to check the fuel level in a 350 gallon tanker with a lighter(yes, just like in the cartoons, it lit up. He wasn't injured and even got a fire extinguisher and put it out). I've fueled just about everything that flies, and, like the rest of you have, I regularly re-fuel cars, trucks, lawn mowers, chain saws and tractors to name just a few. Yes, fuel has to be handled with extreme care. We all do it every day. Every year we read a few stories of people involved in fuel accidents. But in the big picture, if you follow proper safety precautions, the chances are pretty good that you will be OK.

So, to return to the original question of this thread, I would be a little annoyed that the tractor purchased was not the tractor pictured. And the design was changed a bit. Some for the better, some for reasons we will never know, but for the worse, I haven't seen that. The fuel spraying out of the cap is unacceptable. We all know that Power Trac is not known for keeping it's website completely up to date with their current production. And we all know that Power Trac documentation is lacking. It does miff me a bit, but I knew this before I purchased. My research led me to believe the product is a great concept and the company is constantly trying to improve it. It also inicated the machine would do what I needed to do and so far it has(Last night I leveled and graded my children's school ball diamond in about 45 minutes).

In conclusion, I believe in the Power Trac products. I believe they are truly trying to improve the products on a regular basis. I believe they have taken care of my needs when I call them. I believe they could do a better job of documentation. I believe they could do a better job of quality control and testing new designs. With any product, it's in our best interest to fully research before purchase. If the documentation doesn't match the product delivered, that is not right in my mind and they need to step up and keep the documentation current. Off my soapbox now. Thanks for letting me vent(no pun intended). /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[toolz_not_toyz]

Re: Short Run of \'Different\' PT-425

</font><font color="blue" class="small">(

"" steel fuel tank is better than a plastic fuel tank ""

Actually a stronger case could be made against a plastic tank vented inside the engine compartment than against a steel tank vented to the outside air!

)</font>

??? They're both vented to the outside air. The engine compartment is outside, isn't it?


</font><font color="blue" class="small">(
The heavy steel tank in the cover is of such construction that it would most likely remain intact even if a tank explosion did somehow occur! )</font>

Well, I'd like to see that experiment!! /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I highly doubt that Power Trac intended that the owner refuel with the cover open! I do not put my ATV up on its rear wheels and rear rack to fill its tank from the side! I have never seen a motorcycle laying on its side at the gas station while the rider fills the tank from the side rather than from the top! )</font>

Clearly, you haven't been following this thread. You're obviously doing it wrong and need to consult the manual immediately! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

As for the funnel...I did break down and start using a funnel as discussed in another thread. But I'd really like to get one of those super duper spouts that was mentioned in this thread. The one I have has a twist on/off valve but it doesn't work properly with those useless (IMHO) self-venting (or is it non-venting?) Blitz gas cans they now sell all over the place. I much prefer my old steel Esso can circa 1972. Sigh.

 

[FOURTEEN]

Re: Short Run of \'Different\' PT-425

The venting cap for the steel tank is on the outside top of the engine cover outside the engine compartment.
The venting cap for the plastic tank and the plastic tank are under the engine cover inside the engine compartment.

Try it and report back!!
If the steel tank is full to the top with the cap off, igniting the gas would produce about a 2" x 2" flame that would burn like a large candle!

Where does Power Trac specify the correct refueling method????

The large funnel I use to refuel my steel tank PT-425 with its cover closed is 10" in diameter, and 7" tall, with a 1-1/2" narrowing to 3/4" exit tube 3" long. It fits snugly into the PT's tank, and my 6 gallon gas can can rest on its rim without moving it. When the gas in the tank rises enough to reach the bottom end of the exit tube, the in rushing gas begins to make a different sound, alerting me that the tank is nearly full.

Although filling the steel tank with a funnel with the cover closed may sound very difficult and complex, I am quite certain that anyone who has mastered tying his own shoe laces, with practice, should be able to handle the job without burning his house down!!

/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[toy]

Re: Short Run of \'Different\' PT-425

I am glad that there was no harm done. I have never seen the condition that you are describing as far as the fuel boiling in the tank. Myself I would rather have the gas spew ten foot behind the pt than to have it spew out the topwith the cover closed. If I had your conditions I would remove the cap slowly to let some of the pressure escape. There is a difference of opinion on the forum as to the danger of gas and whether to fill up with the hood closed or opened so which ever way you choose to fill up be careful. I read on the forum not long ago about someone seeing a 425 in a repair shop that had caught onfire. According to my understanding he was filling it up with the hood closed and he overfilled it and it caught on fire and as discussed before how would you react in a situitation like that would you do the right thing or not. In the post that I read in a panic he decided to raise the hood wrong choice he had already overfilled it and by raising the hood he spilled the aproximate 3 inches of extra fuel out of it that had he filled it up with the hood raised he couldn't have gotten in it and with the fire already going well you can imagine. I think that the post said that his house burned up with it . When he started filling up I figure he felt real confident and safe and probably would have thought that raising the hood to fill up was a silly idea but during the ordeal he must have rethought the idea and tried to mix the two procedures and it won't work when you have already overfilled it with the hood down. I have a real healthy respect for gas I have seen what it can do, I had a friend burned up with it. Yea he lived but what a price he paid for it. He was on a fork lift and it overturned with him and he couldn't get loose from it. One of the idiots that came to help him had a cigirate and threw it down so he could help, he helped alright that was what ignited the gas. Now I know some of you are more skilled than I am because I know I am not above having an accident so I'll be diligent about safety and you can use gas as a flame thrower if you want. A person has to make up their own mind about things like that and take responsibility for their actions. I don't mean to scare any one off from buying a pt other machinery has dangers to what I am saying is when you plan your projects plan safety in with it. Now for the overfilling of the tank, with the hood down look at the top of the filler hole, if the machine is level you can fill the tank up even with the top of the filler hole. With the hood raised when you are filling it how can you fill it any farther than the bottom of the hole, it can't be done. Now I know the machines are different from model to model but my exhaust is in very close proximity to the opening in the tank when the hood is down.

 

[toolz_not_toyz]

Re: Short Run of \'Different\' PT-425

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Now for the overfilling of the tank, with the hood down look at the top of the filler hole, if the machine is level you can fill the tank up even with the top of the filler hole. With the hood raised when you are filling it how can you fill it any farther than the bottom of the hole, it can't be done. )</font>

You probably shouldn't be filling the tank all the way to the top anyway because it is always wise to allow room for expansion.

Regarding the plastic tank... Perhaps they switched back so you can see easily see how much fuel you have. This is a feature my lawn tractor has...although it doesn't do any good for filling since they put the "window" in front of the seat where you can't see it while filling. Still, I just look to see when the gas gets to the bottom of the tip of the funnel.

I guess there's no easy way to tell, however, how much gas you have in the PT without either raising the engine compartment cover (plastic tank) or unscrewing the cap (steel tank).

 

[smartguyz]

Re: Short Run of \'Different\' PT-425

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I guess there's no easy way to tell, however, how much gas you have in the PT without either raising the engine compartment cover (plastic tank) or unscrewing the cap (steel tank).

)</font>

Actually, one feature I love about my "older" PT425 (July 2003) is that the plastic tank is clearly visible simply by looking right through the steel grid on the engine cover. This is easy and safe to do when operating the machine. In fact, I often take a quick peek when I am backing up (I have a habit to always look behind before I go backwards - I saw a program about a kid who was run over by his dad going backwards on the tractor - still makes me very sad and cautious) and I grab a quick peek at the tank to check fuel level before backing up.

Just a quick correction - not wanting to start a flame war here.

Sincerely,

Rob /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[MossRoad]

Re: Short Run of \'Different\' PT-425

Yeah, I can see the level in my plastic tank while sitting in the driver's seat as well.

I always top it off before I start using it. That gives me at least 4 hours of solid running at full throttle. By that time, I am ready for a sandwich and let the PT cool off before refueling.

 

[toolz_not_toyz]

Re: Short Run of \'Different\' PT-425

But isn't the engine cover on the more-recent PTs different? I thought they were solid now where the fuel tank lives. What you could do is cut a window into the engine cover, exposing the side of the fuel tank so you can see how full it is.