Shower Pan Suggetions

[dave1949]

Dave 1949: Red Guard is a membrane, that is very tough, after you roll or paint it on, it sets up like rubber. For extra strength in the corners and around the drain I embed some special fabric. The Red guard it self is kinda expensive, but not when you compare it to buying rubber membranes, glue, etc.

That sounds like it would be easier to install than the sheet membrane type for sure. I should have googled it and I would have known it becomes a membrane. The Schluter product isn't cheap either, goes on sort of like wallpapering. And, you have to use their grout type adhesive too.

I think anyway you get there, waterproofing is worth it. I had a long discussion about it with the builder I hired. So, I know there are various opinions about it's necessity. To me, it doesn't matter how many showers have been tiled, it's how many have been opened up 10-15 years later and inspected to see what is really happening. That just doesn't happen very often. I put it in the better safe than sorry category.
Dave.

 

[Pops15]

That sounds like it would be easier to install than the sheet membrane type for sure. I should have googled it and I would have known it becomes a membrane. The Schluter product isn't cheap either, goes on sort of like wallpapering. And, you have to use their grout type adhesive too.

I think anyway you get there, waterproofing is worth it. I had a long discussion about it with the builder I hired. So, I know there are various opinions about it's necessity. To me, it doesn't matter how many showers have been tiled, it's how many have been opened up 10-15 years later and inspected to see what is really happening. That just doesn't happen very often. I put it in the better safe than sorry category.
Dave.

The only reason to open them up is if they have already failed. You'll know if it has leaked without opening it up.

 

[PA hayseed]

I'm a homeowner not a professional shower installer.

My .02 after pricing out those kits, systems, and such, call a tile guy who does showers for a living. Not a tile guy who does showers on occassion. I got my guy by going to a tile place and asking them for their list of installers. I called each one and asked them about showers. You will be surprised how many tile guys don't do showers (the pan) all that often or at all.

I ended up getting three quotes. The cheapest guy was actually the guy that the tile place had as one of their premium installers. His bid was about the same price as ordering one of those systems (actually less). I installed the membrane (actually me and my brother who is a plumber by trade and installs them for a living), and the cement Board (he insisted on installing the bottom pieces to warranty it), and made my own curb out of 2x4's. I had my shower plumbed and ready for the guy. He did the pan in two days (they put some sealant on the first day). He also tiled the shower for me (I was going to tile it myself but his quote was too good to pass up). I had my own tile, grout, corner shelfs, and I made my own bench out of marble slabs I got off craigslist. He installed it all and helped me cut my last peice of marble for the threshold over the curb.

My shower would have been very pricey for one of those kits, my shower is about 6'x5'. I really wanted a copper pan, but nobody near me made those and they are pricey and then tack on shipping. If you do a kit, my suggestion would be to build the shower to the size of one of their standard kits to reduce costs.

Good luck, it took me awhile to figure out which way I was going to go with the pan after quotes and kit prices.

 

[Pops15]

I would agree with POP except for one thing. Your skill and ability to create a mudded floor pan. We found this very challenging to do well in our remodel. And we are on a slab. The Schluter system is popular in LA with the high end tile guys. Not sure why but it is the one that seems to be in all the high end tile stores. Wish we had gone with a schluter or comparable, but only for the simple fact we did not have the skillset to make the shower pan.

Most people that have never poured shower bases mix their mud much too wet. You don't so much pour and trowel it as you dump it, pack it, then carve it. Some guys put the membrane right on the deck, others pour part of the base to give it slope to the drain then install the membrane, then pour another layer of mud. There are many ways to achieve good results as long as the (base) membrane turns up the walls and the cement board overlaps it. The wall membrane some have mentioned really isn't needed. It doesn't hurt anything though.

 

[AHNC]

Not much to offer on the pan itself, but as you say you are going frameless on the shower enclosure/doors so make sure that your floors and walls are dead level and plumb.

 

[dave1949]

The only reason to open them up is if they have already failed. You'll know if it has leaked without opening it up.

There are degrees of failure, damage can be happening and it not be noticable on the outside. Lot of folks can be fairly oblivious about things like that anyways. What you are saying is if it fails badly enough, it will be noticable. Given the general air tightness of newer homes, a little moisture is probably more of an issue than it used to be. There are reasons why membranes are becoming SOP.

I don't expect to change your mind. I never convinced my builder that hardiboard is not a vapor or moisture barrier - even when I pointed it out on the label. That being the case, the waterproof-ness is all dependent on the grout lines. I'm sure they don't leak when newly installed and properly sealed. As time goes by, that can change.

Dave.

 

[Pops15]

There are degrees of failure, damage can be happening and it not be noticable on the outside. Lot of folks can be fairly oblivious about things like that anyways. What you are saying is if it fails badly enough, it will be noticable. Given the general air tightness of newer homes, a little moisture is probably more of an issue than it used to be. There are reasons why membranes are becoming SOP.

I don't expect to change your mind. I never convinced my builder that hardiboard is not a vapor or moisture barrier - even when I pointed it out on the label. That being the case, the waterproof-ness is all dependent on the grout lines. I'm sure they don't leak when newly installed and properly sealed. As time goes by, that can change.

Dave.

What you're not taking into consideration is for the waterproof wall membranes to do any good, the tile job will have had to fail first. It has nothing to do with the hardi board. The membrane is just a last line of defense. The home owner would still be looking at considerable expense to repair or replace the tile. The money spent on the membrane would be better spent on maintaining the first line of defense which is the grout. Inspect it a couple times a year and re-seal it every 5 years (which is probably overkill) and you be money ahead.
While the use of membranes is becoming more common, it certainly isn't SOP. It's just another way for someone to separate people from their money.

 

[dave1949]

What you're not taking into consideration is for the waterproof wall membranes to do any good, the tile job will have had to fail first. It has nothing to do with the hardi board. The membrane is just a last line of defense. The home owner would still be looking at considerable expense to repair or replace the tile. The money spent on the membrane would be better spent on maintaining the first line of defense which is the grout. Inspect it a couple times a year and re-seal it every 5 years (which is probably overkill) and you be money ahead.
While the use of membranes is becoming more common, it certainly isn't SOP. It's just another way for someone to separate people from their money.

If people took good care of the grout they may have a chance. I'll bet few people do that. Don't discount kids banging toys on the tiles, extra exuberant shower whoopie and grout damaging cleaners. Mold remediation will most certainly separate you from some money after it gets started in a wall.

So, why do you think mold is more common in homes these days? A lot of schools and public buildings back in the '70's replaced their giant, heat losing windows with smaller and often fixed glass windows. That was followed by lots of schools with mold issues. Now, houses are sealed up pretty tight and the installation of make-up air and air exchange units has lagged, although there is more attention to that recently. What's your take on that?
Dave.

 

[Pops15]

Dave,
I've worked full time in construction for 33 years and part time for a few years before that, and grew up around it before that. In the last 11 years I've tiled over 180 showers. I don't have a clue how many I did prior to that but it was allot. If I had to guess I'd say another 50-70.
I haven't had a single problem with leaking or mold in a shower that I've tiled. In remodel jobs where mold is prevalent its not at all uncommon for the homeowner to admit they saw the first signs of leaking several years prior. Its easy to tell they've been leaking by the condition of the tile and grout.

I don't believe mold is more common now than in the past. People weren't aware of the health issues associated with mold in the past. They're just more educated about it now. I don't take mold problems lightly. I have a good friend who is having serious lung problems because of mold.

As for the schools....I'd say the mold was present when the old windows were in place. Those windows were likely where the moisture was coming from either by leaking or by condensation. By installing more efficient windows the air quality worsened because air infiltration was reduced....the good air couldn't get in.
Indoor air quality standards have become more stringent as well. There isn't more mold, but rather better standards which have lead to more emphasis on preventing mold growth and cleaning it up if it's already present.
If there was no mold present before the windows were replaced in a school there shouldn't be any afterwards as the new windows should have less condensation.
Air exchangers are used to improve air quality in a number of ways other than mold levels. My first encounter with indoor air quality standards and air exchangers was in the 70's when I was working on an office remodel for the state of Illinois. Mold wasn't even on the radar then.

Now back to the topic of membranes. If a membrane is used on the walls and a tile job does fail, mold will still be present between the membrane and tile as well as in the grout. You'll still need to rip out the tile and replace it. You'd be much better off just making sure your tile and grout are in good shape so that you never have the mold problem to start with.
Pops

 

[dave1949]

Dave,
I've worked full time in construction for 33 years and part time for a few years before that, and grew up around it before that. In the last 11 years I've tiled over 180 showers. I don't have a clue how many I did prior to that but it was allot. If I had to guess I'd say another 50-70.
I haven't had a single problem with leaking or mold in a shower that I've tiled. In remodel jobs where mold is prevalent its not at all uncommon for the homeowner to admit they saw the first signs of leaking several years prior. Its easy to tell they've been leaking by the condition of the tile and grout.

I don't believe mold is more common now than in the past. People weren't aware of the health issues associated with mold in the past. They're just more educated about it now. I don't take mold problems lightly. I have a good friend who is having serious lung problems because of mold.

As for the schools....I'd say the mold was present when the old windows were in place. Those windows were likely where the moisture was coming from either by leaking or by condensation. By installing more efficient windows the air quality worsened because air infiltration was reduced....the good air couldn't get in.
Indoor air quality standards have become more stringent as well. There isn't more mold, but rather better standards which have lead to more emphasis on preventing mold growth and cleaning it up if it's already present.
If there was no mold present before the windows were replaced in a school there shouldn't be any afterwards as the new windows should have less condensation.
Air exchangers are used to improve air quality in a number of ways other than mold levels. My first encounter with indoor air quality standards and air exchangers was in the 70's when I was working on an office remodel for the state of Illinois. Mold wasn't even on the radar then.

Now back to the topic of membranes. If a membrane is used on the walls and a tile job does fail, mold will still be present between the membrane and tile as well as in the grout. You'll still need to rip out the tile and replace it. You'd be much better off just making sure your tile and grout are in good shape so that you never have the mold problem to start with.
Pops

Thanks for sharing your mold experience. It probably always is present, that's logical. Add in less air circulation, a little higher humidity and the mold colony will grow. Just having several hundred people breathing will add a lot of humidity. Comparable to e-coli. Almost always some around, but takes a bunch of it to make you sick. When they sealed up those school buildings, they didn't compensate by adding air exchangers. Plus, carpeting in school rooms became more popular around that time.

I think I will put grout re-seal on my to do list Can't argue against that. It's will be about 3 years old this summer.

If a tiled shower wall is leaking and does so long enough, without a membrane it will spread farther. Molds need something to feed on, right? I respect your experience. I still see the membranes as a better safe than sorry option. You are right, either way, it's going to need to be retiled.

Temperature vs humidity is critical too. I had mold getting started on the ceiling around my attic access hatch in the garage a couple years back. I had come up short on insulation and neglected to get more. I needed a bit more fiberglass to finish around the hatch. Just that temperature difference compared to the surrounding ceiling was enough to get condensation and mold. I finished insulating that area and that solved the problem. I store about a cord of wood in the garage over the winter, obviously I am supplying all the needed spores.

When the car comes in dripping and carrying snow everyday about all winter long, there is always plenty of available moisture. I would have never suspected a little missing insulation would lead to a problem.

My attic is pretty cold since I have 18" of blown cellulose. Had to build a little retaining 'wall' out of plywood scraps around the hatch area to avoid getting a cellulose shower everytime I open it.

Dave.