skidding on black ice

[MattLynch]

You are hilarious ! I worked in GM's Vehicle Dynamics Department for almost 40 years. The research has been done, the facts written and published, even tried in Courts all over the world. And ANYONE can post on Wikipedia. The reason ABS is REQUIRED on most vehicles is because there are stopping distance requirements with wet and dry surface performance specifications (FMVSS Mandate 105).

The Courts ALWAYS rule that claims from self-educated experts are 'anecdotal'. That means it's basically a storied claim not supported by any sort of controlled test results. I've been in courtrooms to see this testimony stricken from the record because it has no scientific merit. Even NHTSA has to respond to such claims and correct them.
All the vehicle manufacturers have large departments devoted to testing, data collection and driver training for traction, braking and now even stability control mechanisms.

I have all the data, testing and driving experience I need now in retirement for all the vehicles I own. And several S.A.E. papers authored to prove it. And, I'm on LinkedIn where my resume bares it all. So don't muddy the waters with anecdotal claims, Its bad for your health. Until you've operated a traction trailer on concrete, asphalt, wet, dry, snow, gravel and mud coated surfaces, you have no claims to fame. Oh, by the way, next time you fly in a commercial aircraft, tell the pilot when you board that you don't believe ABS should be enabled on an ice covered runway. Then listen really carefully to their reply.

ABS can stop faster on ice and wet pavement. I will not argue that, and I will not argue against the benefits of abs but I stand by what I said. You may have a background in an automotive company, but so do I. I also spent a few years road racing and did a little bit of rally racing.

Try telling a rally racer they can stop faster on gravel with abs!

 

[MattLynch]

What you should know about ... Anti-lock Braking System: How do I use ABS? - Transport Canada
Another one issued by the government of Canada on ABS. There is a pile of information to support this, I even remember watching a training video from GM stating that abs will increase stopping distances in certain conditions, but will allow the driver to steer.

 

[VTFireftr]

The problem here is not ABS. It's LAWYERS, NHTSA, Ralph Nader, and all the other safety nazis mandating all this "safety" crap on the vehicles we buy today. Why should I be forced to buy a work truck with multiple air bags, ABS and other crap I do NOT want. Why can't i opt out of these "features" and save some cash? I know I'm not the only one that feels this way.

I will however limit my rant here, or I may never get away from this keyboard!

Be safe all!

And remember to pull over AND stop when you see an emergency vehicle approaching (from back or front)! You never know who's loved one is depending upon the responding vehicle you are delaying!

 

[jejeosborne]

The problem here is not ABS. It's LAWYERS, NHTSA, Ralph Nader, and all the other safety nazis mandating all this "safety" crap on the vehicles we buy today. Why should I be forced to buy a work truck with multiple air bags, ABS and other crap I do NOT want. Why can't i opt out of these "features" and save some cash? I know I'm not the only one that feels this way.

I agree with some of your concerns but not those that could impact the safety of others. ABS saves lives no doubt, it may not be just yours but an innocent person in another vehicle. Vehicles have to be made "dummy" proof too for those who don't handle emergency situations well which is a good argument for making stability control standard as well. Your work truck may never see the road but when you sell it, who knows the future of the vehicle.

 

[dodge man]

Yeah the data is for 18 year old vehicles. I also wonder if the average driver would do as well as the test driver for those results.

 

[daugen]

I have a spare anchor from my old boat. Wonder if I could rig that up on my rear bumper to drop when needed?
Maybe the ABS could tell it which side to drop on. Got that all figured out.
gotta run, have to file those patents.

 

[Dr_Zinj]

ABS won't work if you don't have enough following distance in the first place.
ABS won't work if you're sliding sideways.
ABS won't work if the vehicle is floating. This doesn't mean just in water, but also in deep mud or snow where the undercarriage is in contact with the material (you're sliding on the belly then.) Of course that usually means you're stuck, not sliding out of control.
ABS won't work if the vehicle's wheels are not in contact with anything. (See above.)
ABS won't work if someone else hits you instead.

The subject of the thread was skidding on black ice. I assumed it was about what to do when you're already in the dog house. PREVENTING it in the first place should be your goal, and slowing down in the first place is the number one method. Keeping a big enough following distance is number two. And keeping a big enough buffer distance from everything and everyone else is number three.

 

[slowzuki]

As some people have noted ABS computers have come a long ways in 15 years. Many disable or modify their pattern of operation at low speed and low temperatures now.

I think a lot of people forget what sliding without abs feels like and blame the abs. I alternate between abs and non-abs vehicles all winter and you know what one always stops faster every single time? The one with the good snow tires on it. ABS can't do anything with poor tires and neither can non-abs.

BTW the advice of lifting off the throttle suddenly isn't the best, some cars have transmission braking on their automatics and in a fwd its a good way to lose it. Same as dumping the clutch in a fwd standard, especially if the car is still cold this leads to slight braking on the front wheels and loss of control on ice. If you can keep at very close to neutral ie no acceleration perfect coasting you are fine and can even recover in a mild spin. If you have dumped the clutch or dropped off the gas it is really hard to match the tire speed close enough to recover control from mild spin on ice. At that point all you can do is get the fronts pointed as close to the correct angle as possible for when you come off the ice.

 

[nc redneck]

Thread is about " Black Ice " I doubt anyone north of Mason Dixen line even truly know what it is. Only happens about evey 5 or 7 years. ABS, 4 by 4
Lockers front and rear. None of that will help in true black ice. IMO

 

[MattLynch]

Black ice happens here quite frequently, good studded tyres help a lot.