Slopes and tractor tilt

[North Country]

The 2305 also appears to have a wider (front axle) track relative to the height of the tractor's hood, although that might just be perspective (you apparently crouched down in front of the tractor).

My 4400's front axle track doesn't appear to be as wide (relative to the top of the hood).

I think it's wider as it comes from from the factory, *and* I swapped the front tires to the wide side of the rim to match the 1" spacers I added in the rear.

 

[RoyJackson]

I think it's wider as it comes from from the factory, *and* I swapped the front tires to the wide side of the rim to match the 1" spacers I added in the rear.

Definitely a lower hood too, it appears. I've never looked at a 2305 in the metal, so I'm basing that statement on your pictures.

Much controversy on TBN about swapping the fronts. I did on my old 790, but probably won't on the 4400. The 790 did feel more stable, but that's strictly subjective.
The argument against swapping is that (1) it doesn't really help stability and (2) accelerated front wheel bearing wear.
I'm on the fence as far as swapping the fronts, but if it make one feel more secure, why not?

 

[North Country]

I didn't notice any change in stability. I did it to match the rear track and to test the configuration in case I decide to run 4W chains this winter. It seems just fine to me.

I don't know how your chassis compares to the 4100, but the 2305 is quite a bit shorter than that. I looked at a 4100 earlier this spring. I really like the (sub)compact size of the 2305. Sometimes I wish I had more weight but my turf and my garage thank me. When it's in full TLB configuration it takes up less space than my wife's RAV4.

 

[RoyJackson]

I didn't notice any change in stability. I did it to match the rear track and to test the configuration in case I decide to run 4W chains this winter. It seems just fine to me.

I don't know how your chassis compares to the 4100, but the 2305 is quite a bit shorter than that. I looked at a 4100 earlier this spring. I really like the (sub)compact size of the 2305. Sometimes I wish I had more weight but my turf and my garage thank me. When it's in full TLB configuration it takes up less space than my wife's RAV4.

The 4400 is what was considered a medium frame tractor back when they were built. The 4100 was a small frame (close to a subCUT) and weighed (base tractor) under 2000 lbs. The 4400 weighs in at just about 3000 lbs (again, base tractor...no loader).
I've attached pics of the tractor (just pics I have...nothing to do with the "slopes" thread). You'll see the 4400 is quite a bit larger.

 

[SPYDERLK]

Pictures! I tried to hold the camera level, but you can see by the tree trunks in the background I tended to tilt it to make the slope look *less* than actual.
Unless the ground is uneven, it doesn't look to me like the front axle pivots.

With a close enuf check you would find that the front axle pivots uphill relative to the chassis on a flat slope.
larry

 

[SPYDERLK]

I didn't notice any change in stability. I did it to match the rear track and to test the configuration in case I decide to run 4W chains this winter. It seems just fine to me.

I don't know how your chassis compares to the 4100, but the 2305 is quite a bit shorter than that. I looked at a 4100 earlier this spring. I really like the (sub)compact size of the 2305. Sometimes I wish I had more weight but my turf and my garage thank me. When it's in full TLB configuration it takes up less space than my wife's RAV4.

In some ways stability will decrease with a wide front. While on a slope, consider turning hard downhill with a heavy bucket.
larry

 

[Reg]

While this thread has been kinda/sorta interesting, useful and fun - - I'm going back to my original position(s).

Tractors are tall and kinda tippy, there are better (SAFER !) solutions for MOWING on slopes.
There are better (again SAFER) solutions for almost everything we do on slopes.
In many cases renting a (Whatever) would be a faster, cheaper, safer way to do a lot of our tasks - - but we tend to push our SAKs (Swiss Army Knife) tractors.

One more time;
"Tractors are for tractorin', mowers are for mowin'."
(-:

 

[leonz]

While this thread has been kinda/sorta interesting, useful and fun - - I'm going back to my original position(s).

Tractors are tall and kinda tippy, there are better (SAFER !) solutions for MOWING on slopes.
There are better (again SAFER) solutions for almost everything we do on slopes.
In many cases renting a (Whatever) would be a faster, cheaper, safer way to do a lot of our tasks - - but we tend to push our SAKs (Swiss Army Knife) tractors.

One more time;
"Tractors are for tractorin', mowers are for mowin'."
(-:

Its always better to back up a slope with any mower
especially if you are unsure of the how the basic physics will
create a monster that loves gravity as the Nebraska Tractor tests
show faithfully every year.

Its always better to-
1. wear your seat belt
2. make sure the R.O.P.S., is fully erect and locked
3. buy a tilt meter from the vendor that offers them
on the home page here and be safe every time
4. back up slopes and drive down them at all times
5. leave the offending implement in full contact with the ground

 

[Reg]

Its always better to back up a slope with any mower
especially if you are unsure of the how the basic physics will
create a monster that loves gravity as the Nebraska Tractor tests
show faithfully every year.

Its always better to-
1. wear your seat belt
2. make sure the R.O.P.S., is fully erect and locked
3. buy a tilt meter from the vendor that offers them
on the home page here and be safe every time
4. back up slopes and drive down them at all times
5. leave the offending implement in full contact with the ground

That pre-supposes that you will use a tractor.
I would shift all of your points down a notch and put; "Use the most appropriate tool for the job" at #1.
Avoidance being better than solution in many/most cases.

I would delete your item #3.
In just about every practical application there is too much to do, look at, feel, watch out for - adding a goofy gauge adds a distraction - it will NOT be calibrated to your rig - a root, rock or pot hole will invalidate its reading in an instant.
A dangerous distraction at best.

 

[North Country]

OK, speaking from experience, which I will relate below, I will always have the FEL attached and don't hesitate to put stuff in it that I need to relocate.

Was planting native grass seeds on a dirt tank, going up and down the slope (not sideways) and turning around on the top of the tank to head back down. FEL inches off the ground(maybe 3 inches), loaded with about 300 lbs of rock.

A moment of inattention and I found myself doing a U turn a moment too late on the top of the dirt tank.... right front wheel went just a tad further down the opposite slope than on previous turns and in a flash the left rear loaded wheel was off the ground. I dropped the FEL further and stopped to survey the situation.

Turns out that the FEL was dug into the ground (the round part, not the teeth) and because of this it actually PREVENTED my rolling over. It provided a point of ground contact further in front of the tractor than the front wheel and with some DOWN FORCE. Thus, it PREVENTED the rear wheel from rising further, thus dramatically raising the COG and preventing allowing/initiating roll over.

Think about it.. for a rear wheel to rise, the tractor footprint rectangle must dip down on the opposing corner. A FEL out there extends that rectangle footprint beyond the front wheel. If close to the ground and dropped/driven into the ground when a roll starts, then it MUST assist in preventing the further rear tire elevation.

I was in 4wd low range, thus going very slow and momentum was not an issue, just balance.

I got out of it by strapping the tractor to my F350 to prevent actual roll over, getting additional help (my son), then SLOWLY turning front wheels downhill while AT THE SAME TIME keeping FEL in strong ground contact with hydraulic down force to maintain some modicum of stability. Ground was loose, thus slid under the FEL just enough...didn't "catch"....I also left the Brillion grass seeder pin hitch attached to the tractor...providing backdrag and some down force on the tow hitch.

Net, my experience leads me to conclude that in my case, with my tractor, in this instance, with me driving and taking the actions described, THE FEL PREVENTED A ROLL OVER.

I will tell you that I had to struggle mightily to dismount the tractor on the uphill side when the tractor was stopped. I have a cab. I truly don't believe there is any way I could have bailed out uphill from a moving non cab tractor. I would consider that move to be a suicide mission in the case I described.

Yes, my experience goes counter to what many have posted here. All I can tell you is that in my case, I WOULD have rolled over except for the FEL and the way I applied it when things went downhill (literally) very fast! Trust me, you DON'T have 1 to 2 actual seconds to take action. True time frame is about .5 second.

With my first hand experience, I will continue to keep FEL on and extremely low whenever I am on uncertain ground. You may decide that you wish to take a different approach.

Stay safe out there!

I do some of my best thinking when I'm asleep.

I just pieced together your story last night, and let me see if I have this right:

You had the FEL on.
You had the FEL loaded with 300 lbs rock.
You had nothing on the 3pt hitch (you mention the seeder was on the pin hitch)
You were towing a seeder.
You went over the crest of the hill with the outside front wheel while turning back uphill to reach the crest.

Did I get this right?

So you have a tractor with an FEL, loaded with 300lbs in the bucket and no ballast, made an uphill turn - and it was the FEL that prevented the rollover? Did I miss anything?

 

[RoyJackson]

I would delete your item #3.
In just about every practical application there is too much to do, look at, feel, watch out for - adding a goofy gauge adds a distraction - it will NOT be calibrated to your rig - a root, rock or pot hole will invalidate its reading in an instant.
A dangerous distraction at best.

Actually, tiltmeters are quite handy and well worthwhile...especially for the novice tractor operator or when working on unfamiliar turf.

It's not a gage you continuously watch (you don't continuously watch your temp gage or fuel level gage either). It's not for those abrupt changes (upslope rock, downslope rut) but work well for any slope or if the slope gradually increases in steepness.
Easy to calibrate, but you'll need a level and preferably do this on a concrete surface (well, not dirt or gravel). Once leveled, there is not reason to re-level it unless you know it's been moved somehow.

Attached pic is my tiltmeter on my old 670.

 

[Reg]

OK, speaking from experience, which I will relate below, I will always have the FEL attached and don't hesitate to put stuff in it that I need to relocate.

Was planting native grass seeds on a dirt tank, going up and down the slope (not sideways) and turning around on the top of the tank to head back down. FEL inches off the ground(maybe 3 inches), loaded with about 300 lbs of rock.

A moment of inattention and I found myself doing a U turn a moment too late on the top of the dirt tank.... right front wheel went just a tad further down the opposite slope than on previous turns and in a flash the left rear loaded wheel was off the ground. I dropped the FEL further and stopped to survey the situation.

Turns out that the FEL was dug into the ground (the round part, not the teeth) and because of this it actually PREVENTED my rolling over. It provided a point of ground contact further in front of the tractor than the front wheel and with some DOWN FORCE. Thus, it PREVENTED the rear wheel from rising further, thus dramatically raising the COG and preventing allowing/initiating roll over.

Think about it.. for a rear wheel to rise, the tractor footprint rectangle must dip down on the opposing corner. A FEL out there extends that rectangle footprint beyond the front wheel. If close to the ground and dropped/driven into the ground when a roll starts, then it MUST assist in preventing the further rear tire elevation.

I was in 4wd low range, thus going very slow and momentum was not an issue, just balance.

I got out of it by strapping the tractor to my F350 to prevent actual roll over, getting additional help (my son), then SLOWLY turning front wheels downhill while AT THE SAME TIME keeping FEL in strong ground contact with hydraulic down force to maintain some modicum of stability. Ground was loose, thus slid under the FEL just enough...didn't "catch"....I also left the Brillion grass seeder pin hitch attached to the tractor...providing backdrag and some down force on the tow hitch.

Net, my experience leads me to conclude that in my case, with my tractor, in this instance, with me driving and taking the actions described, THE FEL PREVENTED A ROLL OVER.

I will tell you that I had to struggle mightily to dismount the tractor on the uphill side when the tractor was stopped. I have a cab. I truly don't believe there is any way I could have bailed out uphill from a moving non cab tractor. I would consider that move to be a suicide mission in the case I described.

Yes, my experience goes counter to what many have posted here. All I can tell you is that in my case, I WOULD have rolled over except for the FEL and the way I applied it when things went downhill (literally) very fast! Trust me, you DON'T have 1 to 2 actual seconds to take action. True time frame is about .5 second.

With my first hand experience, I will continue to keep FEL on and extremely low whenever I am on uncertain ground. You may decide that you wish to take a different approach.

Stay safe out there!

YOU were there, I wasn't.

As I read what you wrote...
I interpret that your FEL and bucket in combination with the particular maneuver PRECIPITATED a rear wheel lift that you were able to recover from - and you are attributing the "Save" to the presence of the FEL and bucket .

I am kinda/sorta in your camp in that I would prefer the scary recoverable thing to happen EARLY on a minor grade - rather than the sudden nasty unrecoverable thing to happen LATER on a more severe grade.

Somewhat like the cute little Citroen 2CV that always looks and feels as if it will roll over on the slowest and gentlest of turns, but just about never does.
It just scares the BeJ%s^s outta Ya, but they're not really THAT tippy.
They make Ya slow down and drive carefully though.

 

[geboyes]

One member suggested mowing a slope at an angle, has anyone any experience here. I would imagine that mowing at a 45 degree angle would imptove the safety aspect, and enable you to mow areas unmowable horizontally. I find that mowing a steep slope vertically, really digs things up, particularly at the bottom, when you have to brake, change direction, and start up the hill again. I have a slope that has forest at the bottom, so I have to continually stop, steer to the side, and then start back up. I have 4WD, and front , and wheel weights. So what are the thoughts on a 45deg run down, and then a 90 degree turn to a 45 degree run up.

 

[RoyJackson]

One member suggested mowing a slope at an angle, has anyone any experience here. I would imagine that mowing at a 45 degree angle would imptove the safety aspect, and enable you to mow areas unmowable horizontally. I find that mowing a steep slope vertically, really digs things up, particularly at the bottom, when you have to brake, change direction, and start up the hill again. I have a slope that has forest at the bottom, so I have to continually stop, steer to the side, and then start back up. I have 4WD, and front , and wheel weights. So what are the thoughts on a 45deg run down, and then a 90 degree turn to a 45 degree run up.

The most important thing is to do what works for you!!

 

[TripleR]

One member suggested mowing a slope at an angle, has anyone any experience here. I would imagine that mowing at a 45 degree angle would imptove the safety aspect, and enable you to mow areas unmowable horizontally. I find that mowing a steep slope vertically, really digs things up, particularly at the bottom, when you have to brake, change direction, and start up the hill again. I have a slope that has forest at the bottom, so I have to continually stop, steer to the side, and then start back up. I have 4WD, and front , and wheel weights. So what are the thoughts on a 45deg run down, and then a 90 degree turn to a 45 degree run up.

I have tried just about every way there is to mow slopes and have yet to find one that is truly comfortable. I have a pond levy configured like you describe and have mowed it this way and it does feel less scary though whether it is more or less stable I am sure will be open to debate. I have never turned a tractor over, so it has worked out OK for me.

 

[smiley]

One member suggested mowing a slope at an angle, has anyone any experience here. I would imagine that mowing at a 45 degree angle would imptove the safety aspect, and enable you to mow areas unmowable horizontally. I find that mowing a steep slope vertically, really digs things up, particularly at the bottom, when you have to brake, change direction, and start up the hill again. I have a slope that has forest at the bottom, so I have to continually stop, steer to the side, and then start back up. I have 4WD, and front , and wheel weights. So what are the thoughts on a 45deg run down, and then a 90 degree turn to a 45 degree run up.

After 57 years of tractor operating/ownership and 40 years of road building in every capacity from ditchdigger to superintendant, the pucker factor still wins out. If it doesn't feel right, don't do it until you have the experience to do it safely. When going on an questionable slope with a wheel tractor I will scout it first then angle down it, always ready to turn straight down if it gets yantzy. When working cross slope, you can generally feel the high side wheel starting to slip or the front wheel starting to slide. If that happens, crank her downhill and figure a new approach or get a weedwhacker.

The angling down the slope as mentioned above by geboyes works as you're already headed downhill so turning straight down to get out of trouble is just a twist of the wheel. Trying to mow angling uphill could result in problems with soft spots, dips or rocks until you get to know the slope, because to turn down out of trouble, you've got to make that 90 degree turn back downhill. With 4 wd you could turn up the slope to get out but if it's to steep for that, you shouldn't be on it anyways.
Crawlers naturally will handle much steeper terrain but even they have limits. I've never seen one flip but have had them with the high side track clawing air.
I have a 100 hp Massey Ferguson 399 4wd with full cage and winch that was built for power/pipeline ROW maintenance and I know it's capabilities are way beyond my pucker factor so I have a built in safety factor.

As far as the relationship of %/degree of slope as discussed early in this thread, one foot of fall or rise in 100 ft equals a 1% slope. 10ft in 100 = 10% and is 5 degrees, 100ft in 100ft is a 100% slope but only 45 degrees. I tried copying it to post but couldn't, so here is a link to a chart that explains it completely.
www.co.cowlitz.wa.us/buildplan/forms/Calculating Slope.pdf

 

[dennis52]

After 57 years of tractor operating/ownership and 40 years of road building in every capacity from ditchdigger to superintendant, the pucker factor still wins out. If it doesn't feel right, don't do it until you have the experience to do it safely. When going on an questionable slope with a wheel tractor I will scout it first then angle down it, always ready to turn straight down if it gets yantzy. When working cross slope, you can generally feel the high side wheel starting to slip or the front wheel starting to slide. If that happens, crank her downhill and figure a new approach or get a weedwhacker.

The angling down the slope as mentioned above by geboyes works as you're already headed downhill so turning straight down to get out of trouble is just a twist of the wheel. Trying to mow angling uphill could result in problems with soft spots, dips or rocks until you get to know the slope, because to turn down out of trouble, you've got to make that 90 degree turn back downhill. With 4 wd you could turn up the slope to get out but if it's to steep for that, you shouldn't be on it anyways.
Crawlers naturally will handle much steeper terrain but even they have limits. I've never seen one flip but have had them with the high side track clawing air.
I have a 100 hp Massey Ferguson 399 4wd with full cage and winch that was built for power/pipeline ROW maintenance and I know it's capabilities are way beyond my pucker factor so I have a built in safety factor.
As far the relationship of %/degree of slope as discussed early in this thread, one foot of fall or rise in 100 ft equals a 1% slope. 10ft in 100 = 10% and is 5 degrees, 100ft in 100ft is a 100% slope but only 45 degrees. I tried copying it to post but couldn't, so here is a link to a chart that explains it completely.
www.co.cowlitz.wa.us/buildplan/forms/Calculating Slope.pdf

Great Chart. Gave me a much better appreciation of my slopes. The most steep is probably about 35-40 degrees (less than I thought)

 

[Baby Grand]

From Sullivan County (PA) Extension News:

The fatality rate for farmers is 28.4 per 100,000 workers = about 7 times the all industry average.

The tractor is the leading cause of death on the farm.

The most frequent cause of tractor related deaths are side and rear overturns.

Mowing is the most common task when it comes to rollovers.

Farmers in the Northeast experiencse the highest rates of overturn death.

80% of deaths caused by rollovers happen to experienced operators.

... it goes on.

Something to think about when you are tempted to try mowing that slope and the angle meter says 25 degrees.

 

[RoyJackson]

From Sullivan County (PA) Extension News:

The fatality rate for farmers is 28.4 per 100,000 workers = about 7 times the all industry average.

The tractor is the leading cause of death on the farm.

The most frequent cause of tractor related deaths are side and rear overturns.

Mowing is the most common task when it comes to rollovers.

Farmers in the Northeast experiencse the highest rates of overturn death.

80% of deaths caused by rollovers happen to experienced operators.

... it goes on.

Something to think about when you are tempted to try mowing that slope and the angle meter says 25 degrees.

None of that is surprising...
"Farmers in the Northeast experiencse the highest rates of overturn death."

Lot of hilly areas in the North East...and a lot of farms are on hilly areas...

"80% of deaths caused by rollovers happen to experienced operators."

Not surprising...it's easy to get complacent, especially if one has been mowing a field for years with no problems.
Complacentcy is a killer!

 

[smiley]

Most full size tractors can handle a 1 on 4 (25%) slope with no problem unless extenuating circumstances like a soft spot and unseen large rock get you and you'll learn about pucker factor in a hurry. 1 on 4 is the maximum front slope that highways are designed at, as a car can go down that without rolling unless it hits something. As a general rule, anything steeper will have guide rails.

I have seen manuals for loaders etc saying 30% is max safe cross slope but again this would be under ideal conditions so don't do it. Go up and down or diagonally.
We normally work dozers at 50% and more on cross slopes but they are designed for it and will generally start clawing and slipping when they reach their limit. Anything steeper would be done up and down and carefully, by a fully experienced operator and definitely not by me.

As mentioned by baby grand above, rear rollovers are a major concern also. They are caused by being hooked to something too heavy or immovable like a stump. The tractor sits still and rotates up and over on it's own axle. It happened to a friend on his 9N when he got his baler stuck and was looking back at it while trying to get it out. He said because he was looking back, by the time he realized what was happening it was almost straight up and he was already falling off. Luckily he was able to push out sideways but still was limping for weeks as the steering wheel got his foot.