Snow Blower Sizing - Opinions Wanted

[leonz]

With Zaugg you start out with snow blowers for 2 wheel tractors,
then work your way up to sub compact tractors, small tractors,
then tool carriers with front and rear mounts, large tractors
with front and rear mounts all the while sizing it based on
the machine width with no horsepower mentioned.

The ZAUGG units weigh more and have the heavy
EUROCARDAN PTO shafts too.

The other option is the rubber track drive ZAUGG SNOW BEAST that is almost 60 horsepower.
The ZAUGG SNOW BEAST has an operating weight of 1,430 Kilograms (3,152 pounds)
It can clear 3.6 feet-47 inch deep snowpack with a 47 or 51 inch wide cut on the first pass
with its dual cutters.

The diesel engine does not require DEF.

The ZAUGG SNOW BEAST is rated to clear:
440 metric tons - 7.33 metric tons per minute
441 short tons U.S. per hour/7.5 tons-U.S. per minute

 

[fishhead]

Horsepower requirement is a rate. …of how many pounds/minute of snow you’re lifting and throwing.

The pounds/minute (hp) of snow being thrown is a product of:
Snow density (wet vs. dry) x snow height x blower width x forward speed x overlap %..
These are the major factors that will determine how much horsepower a blower requires at any given moment.

For some reason, of those 5 factors, we only talk about the width.

A nice rounded number horsepower rating slapped on a sales brochure makes a lot of assumptions about the other factors that may not apply to your situation.

If blower is rated for 30” of wet snow at 2.5 mph using 60 hp, then it can handle the same snow at 2.0 mph with 48hp. That’s just math. …ahh, but they don’t really tell you what that “60 horsepower requirement” is, do they?

Mostly agree,
I'm guessing that like many things, snow throughput is non-linear as one approaches the max throughput of the fan and chute. Width is important as some minimum is necessary due to tractor width but also rarely discussed are fan size and depth. A larger fan will sweep more volume but also will try to accelerate the mass of the snow more due to the higher tip speed thus using more power. Adding depth to the fan chamber allows more throughput but with lesser throw than a bigger fan and because the snow is accelerated less should allow for more tonnage per hour at a given power level. Chute design enters the picture as well.

I believe hp ratings are usually from a minimum of what the designer figures would be minimum acceptable performance to a design maximum based on gearbox, drive chain etc.

 

[CobyRupert]

Mostly agree,
I'm guessing that like many things, snow throughput is non-linear as one approaches the max throughput of the fan and chute. Width is important as some minimum is necessary due to tractor width but also rarely discussed are fan size and depth. A larger fan will sweep more volume but also will try to accelerate the mass of the snow more due to the higher tip speed thus using more power. Adding depth to the fan chamber allows more throughput but with lesser throw than a bigger fan and because the snow is accelerated less should allow for more tonnage per hour at a given power level. Chute design enters the picture as well.

I believe hp ratings are usually from a minimum of what the designer figures would be minimum acceptable performance to a design maximum based on gearbox, drive chain etc.

Mostly.
I think that at a fixed rpm (say 540 rpm or whatever), where everything is going through, throughput (measured as a volume rate or lbs/min) would be as linear with any of the factors discussed (snow lbs, width, speed, overlap)

I think you are correct that if the design changes how FAR one wants to throw those lbs, this would demand a different amount of horsepower in a non-linear fashion.
But once built, it’s fixed, you get what you get, and horsepower demand is once again a measure of lbs/min moved as a function of snow density, height, width and speed.

 

[screamin400]

I understand the concern for what you want to run. I also look at it far differently than most. I believe you can run whatever you can lift. HP is what is required to move x tons of snow per hour from one location to another. Width only sets the mph. If you go with a larger fan that is going to throw the snow 50' compared to 20' that could change how many ton per hour you can move. It is again about how much hp does it take to throw x number of tons 50' compared to 20'. Don't buy into all the hype. It all boils down to how fast do you want to drive.

 

[leonz]

When you deal with the Pacific Chinook winds driven by ocean fed snow making Sierra cement,
Cascade concrete and the North Sea driven snows of northern Scotland they are very deep and
extremely dense as they are windblown and heavy.

A road legal width of snow blower in the United State is limited in width to 96 inches if my
memory correct.

Using a Zaugg Snow blower as an example they use narrow ribbon cutters with teeth cut into the
steel ribbon bands into the smallest portion and conical side discs rather than wide steel ribbons
and side weldments to help cut into the snowpack and push it inward to the paddle fan to eject it.

If the manufacturers here employed these design's they would sell more of them as they are designed
to work very well with a standard machine width.

The Zaugg Impeller/paddle fans from their smallest snow blower which is the SF40 which is 31 1/2" wide
and has a 16" impeller fan to the largest and widest tractor mounted snow blower which is the SF110 which
is 130 inches wide and has an 39" impeller paddle fan.

Zaugg does not discuss tonnage discharged per hour which is a simple sales tactic, they simply describe thier
snow blowers basic proven design, the available options for each frame size, the impeller/paddle fan diameter.

This You Tube video is showing the Grant Ritchie contracting folks in Scotland clearing an access road to a
wind farm in northern Scotland with a Fendt 4 wheel drive tractor with a Zaugg FS110 snow blower with a
rotating impeller drum which allows side discharge of the snowpack. I belive the Fendt tractor uses a
1,000 RPM Power Take Off.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Hz9vPAKV6A

 

[airbiscuit]

Not exactly cheap. $200 per inch of width!

 

[Beaver Cove Deere]

Not exactly cheap. $200 per inch of width!

View attachment 783192

View attachment 783191

Not even wide enough to clear the tire width on a JD 750.

 

[leonz]

It may be 55 inches wide but it will clear snow faster than a 2 stage snow blower
of nearly the same size.

If you want an implement with high quality of build and a large impeller you have
to spend good money and in the process you will have a snow blower that will outlast
every tractor you put it on.


The company that is selling this ZAUGG snow blower has to make up its mind as to whether
it is new or used and edit their sale sheet.

Edit: The komatsu store listed does not list this "used" Zaugg snow blower in thier used
equipment inventory for sale.

 

[airbiscuit]

If I was going to clear an airport runway, I would consider it. I'll admit the rotating side edges is a clever design. What kind of snowblower do you have?

 

[leonz]

I sent my 2011 John Deere 2 stage junk to the scrapper. My 20 and 30 year old Toro snow pups and my original
garden way snow blower are more dependable than the belt driven JD junk.

 

[LouNY]

I've got two blowers one conventional backup and blow and an inverted pull type. I also have a rear blade and a front blade that will go one the loader.
I do plow a bit faster then I can blow snow most times.
I will use the blade untill the driveway is froze and the large rocks have swept off to the side. Also I plow and blow almost all of my driveway to one side as the other side is an uphill bank.
I don't recall the exact width of my blowers but they are around 8 Ft. wide my Branson has 65 hp on the pto and it handles the blowers easily most of the time.
For those concerned with a blower being too wide you can just take a half swath and cut the hp required down by half or run the first path with the blower raised up a bit.
We got quite a bit of very heavy rained on snow this year and I used the inverted blower, absolutely no issues with the packed wheel tracks not clearing off and the heavy wet stuff blew quite well I was surprised.
Just for the heck of I have used my economy pto setting at times with the blower on fluffy snow and slowed the engine down as I didn't need to have it at full speed. And if you really want to see snow move 750 rpm on a 540 blower really wings the snow out and away.
I would never recommend a blower that wasn't at least as wide as the tractor and preferably at least 6 inchs wider then the tractor. If the 3 point will pick it up and you can carry it, it should work.

 

[fishhead]

Does anyone have experience on wings on an inverted blower, or i guess any blower?
I may end end with a wider tractor and would prefer not to get a new blower for a few more inches. In my case Pronovost puts the same fan size, drum depth and ratings on the next width up so they apparently feel the added throughput of 6 inches more width is no issue. I would still like a good scrape in the wing areas and hope that the additional area would flow well into the center- especially with thick snow or a crust. As Leonz pointed out they do offer fixed and hydraulic wings on their cyclone series hybrids. Since the hybrids are really aimed at commercial i assume the scrape and flow issues are addressed

 

[airbiscuit]

I made wings for my rear push snowblower. They worked great and were robust. I had no issues with feeding or going through thick or crusted snow. I did give them a slight taper up (about 1/2") at the leading edges so they wouldn't dig in, but any snow they left behind was negligible. The wings were 1/8" thick, and the cross bracing was 3/16" thick. My blower was about 8.5" wider after I added the wings.

 

[leonz]

Does anyone have experience on wings on an inverted blower, or i guess any blower?
I may end end with a wider tractor and would prefer not to get a new blower for a few more inches. In my case Pronovost puts the same fan size, drum depth and ratings on the next width up so they apparently feel the added throughput of 6 inches more width is no issue. I would still like a good scrape in the wing areas and hope that the additional area would flow well into the center- especially with thick snow or a crust. As Leonz pointed out they do offer fixed and hydraulic wings on their cyclone series hybrids. Since the hybrids are really aimed at commercial i assume the scrape and flow issues are addressed

Hello fishhead,

It would be worthwhile to ask your dealer if a change order can be added to your sales order
to add 6 inch wings to the snow blower in their fabrication shop.

Leon

 

[fishhead]

Airbiscuit, thanks for the info. Looks like a nice add on.

Leon,
Thanks for the suggestion but I have had the blower for maybe 9 years now so there really is not a sales order in my future if I go that way.
I would take a hard look at what pronovost is doing on their models with wings to potentially copy though

 

[airbiscuit]

They were easy to make. I was concerned whether or not 1/8" would be heavy enough for the wings. The first time out, I caught the corner of my garage apron. A golf ball size piece of concrete broke off, and no dent to the wing!

 

[sd455dan]

Holy cow! That's a lot of snow.

Not sure what brand of inverted blowers you've been looking at, maybe Provonost or Erskine? I believe those are quite expensive. Just for comparison purposes, I didn't find the cost of an inverted WIFO to be that much more than it's comparable counterpart.

From my dealer an 84" WIFO Rear-Facing w/Hydraulic Chute was $5150.
The 84" WIFO Pull-Type ("Inverted") w/Hydraulic Chute was $6350, so $1200 more.

Also to update the thread, I have to admit that my avatar picture is outdated. Pictured is my old Mahindra 4540 with R1 ag's. I've since replaced that tractor with my 5155 with has R4 industrials. However, personally haven't noticed any difference in snow compared to the R1's. My Galaxy R4's have somewhat of a hybrid pattern, and I really like them compared to other tractors I've used with the traditional huge-lug R4 pattern. Those things suck IMO.

I do have studded aquiline chains mounted on the rear and an additional set for the front if I find I need them.

I actually haven't taken any snow photos of it, I should. I'll post some once I get the new blower and pusher attached, I'm picking them up later this week and by the looks of the forecast I'll be testing them out this coming weekend. But, here's an older pic to give you an idea of the tread pattern.

Thread Bump

So were you able to pick up the Blower Walt?

If so what do you think of it so far?

Inquiring minds

 

[Woodstock Walt]

Thread Bump

So were you able to pick up the Blower Walt?

If so what do you think of it so far?

Inquiring minds

I did! I had just logged on to update the thread, so I'm glad you asked.

I picked up the 84" blower and 84" snow pusher Wednesday afternoon, got them attached Wednesday evening, and got to test them out last night with 3" of the wettest, heaviest snow we typically receive around here. Definitely heavy enough that it would've been a chore to wing over with the 8' FEL plow even though it was only 3" deep.

My first impression - very impressed. The WIFO cleared that snow load easily throwing the snow 20-25', and honestly the Mahindra handled the 84" blower with ease. I was able to run in L4 which equates to 3.27 MPH at rated RPM (2300). I typically plow in M1 or M2 at about 1500 RPM, so the speed ends up being about the same. My road is hazardous enough that I don't have any desire to travel faster than that anyways, so no complaints there.

Power-wise, I didn't have any problems. I set the engine speed at 2300/540 PTO RPM and chugged right along without issue using about 2/3 throttle. I encountered a few drifts of deeper snow and the engine would bog slightly to 2100-2200 RPM, then chew through the snow and rise back to its set speed. If I added throttle with the foot pedal when it bogged I could maintain 2300/540 RPM. Never had the need to use 100% throttle. Knowing this, I feel like the tractor/blower combo could handle at least another 1-2" of wet, heavy snow while traveling at the fastest speed that I care to use. So, I don't believe I have anything to complain about. I'm looking forward to trying it out in deeper, lighter snow for comparison.

Efficiency-wise, for this storm I was actually able to clear everything faster than I had previously been able to using the 8' FEL plow. Granted, compared to the plow, the 7' snow pusher made short work of the short, tight areas I use it for. But, for the long stretch of the road, I found the blower to be far superior to the plow.
With the plow, I would make one full-width pass with an angled blade, then two more passes at about half-width to completely clear the road. Then, as previously mentioned, I would swap the plow for the bucket and work diagonally down the road pushing the banks over the edge. With the blower, I was able to make a full pass down and a full pass back up, then the road was completely cleared and the snow was 20' over the edge. Win/win in my opinion.

I'm very much looking forward to using it in a storm of larger snowfall to see how it compares to the plow. But, as of right now I don't have any complaints about it, in fact I wish I had purchased one years ago. I've attached a few pre/post-storm pictures of the setup. I was too focused and excited while I was using it to stop for pictures.

So, thanks to everybody for the advice! Mikester (pg. 8) can get bent as far as I'm concerned, but most everyone else posted helpful content and I'm appreciative. I'll try to keep the thread updated once I try the blower out in some deeper snow.

 

[sd455dan]

Just another thing I remembered Walt.

I pulled the chain cover and shot some chain lube on it when it first arrived.

After the 3rd time blowing I was walking around the blower after shutting the tractor down, and decided to push the auger forward and back with my foot.

It had a bit of rotation - which was not present when I first got it.

Pulled the cover again and the adjustment bolt for the idler had come loose.

I reset it and all the chain slack was removed.
The lock nut was possibly not cranked down tight enough.

Also retorqued the "driveshaft shear bolt" from the Comer 90 degree box to chain gear as well.


Just like a new tractor and FEL, checking the mounting bolts after a few hours of use, is a good idea.

Glad you like the new WIFO Inverted. It Looks Good and like it belongs on your tractor.

Sure happy with mine.

 

[Woodstock Walt]

Thank you! Yeah, I'm glad that you chimed in on this thread. Our tractors are similar enough that your input was pretty much exactly what I was hoping to hear. I like the snow blower a lot.

That's some good advice, I'll pull the chain cover off and check the tensioner bolt now that I've used it some. I also pulled the cover off when I first got it and lubed the chain. I noticed that the chain tension seemed spot on at that time. I greased all of the bearings as well. I should check and retorque the bolts, that's a good idea.