So would you buy a new GM truck now?

[gemini5362]

I disagree. Those salaries are nuts. $71 an hour to build vehicles?? The techs who fix them do not make that, so why should the people who build them? The guys working at Honda and others only make half that, and they are happy. I do agree that the salaries they pay from top to bottom need an over haul, and the greedy unions have no place with the way things are nowadays.

I am sure that number includes benefits. Under benefit you have the part of the health insurance premiums the company pays, you have social security benefits employer pays, you have unemployment insurance premiums employers pay, plus any other negotiated benefits. if you had these benefits up they are almost always quite a bit more than the actual salary employees are paid. I am sure that the employees are not getting 71.00 an hours

 

[Diamondpilot]

Builder it was not my intent to convey that unions put unreal stress on the big 3. Actually I believe I said that any benefits or salary they got was from contract negotiation. Management went to the bargaining table and agreed to the contract. At any point in the negotiation they could have walked away. I believe that the way management is paid and bonuses given is a bigger problem than the unions.


Having a fleet of jets is necessary ? I would love to see the numbers on what it costs Ford to maintain 7 corporate jets versuse leasing one when the odd time they needed it. Technically any meeting you want to talk about can done over the internet with one of the meeting programs if you needed to. I cant imagine them haveing enough people that need to be in three states the same day. At least enough people to warrant 7 jets. Maybe if they downsized management and had someone with decision making capabiliites located in various parts of the US they would not need jets.

You are so wrong about corporate jets. I fly for a living and sell boats for a hobby. I have been a pilot since 1992 and a corporate pilot since 1996. No matter how you cut it you can own your own airplane no matter what it is if you fly aprox 250 hours per year versus chartering or leasing a comporable sized airplane. Less than 250 hours and its cheaper to charter.

You must remember in today's economy time is money. My flight schedule for the next two days is Muncie Indiana to Philly, then on to Atlanta all by noon. On Thursday we fly from Atlanta to Teterboro New Jersey then on to Washington DC. After sitting for 3 hours we are on to Ruston Louisiana then back home to Muncie Indiana all by 6:15 in the evening. It would take a full week to do what we are doing in 2 days if you were to fly the airlines.

We fly our aircraft about 450 hours per year. We employee 3 full time pilots, 1 mechanic and 1 secretary. We also have 2 part time pilots that cover vacations and such and only get paid when used.

Chris

 

[gemini5362]

I wouldn't suggest $12/hour, although that's about $3/hr less than what I pay a Carpenters apprentice to frame buildings that people live in. That's much harsher and more skilled work than a guy making $50-60/hr bolting a seat down in a Pontiac.

In regards to the UAW, I think it's all about the "extremes". Way back when, the unions were needed to get workers some form of protection & decent wages. Today, they've far outlived their usefullness and the pendulum has swung waaaaayyyy too far in their favor. The reason your grandfather calls GM "generous motors" is because they were generous to a fault, they were overly generous to their employees to the point of bankrutping the very company that employed their constituants

There must be a reason a Toyota plant in TN can have people standing in line to employ people with no union representation making lower wages and less benefits.

Why can't the Big 3 have the same thing? Why do they have to be expected to survive with assembly line workers making $90,000/yr doing mostly unskilled work and labot pools with employees not even working for close to a year making nearly full salary?

Where else in the world can a person make $60/hr with no skills and world class benefits outside the UAW or some of the other remaining strong unions?

Builder you keep making allegations to what UAW employees are paid. Do you have any facutal evidence to back those numbers up. I admit I dont have a clue as to what they make. I do however know this much. My union has to go to interest arbitration if we dont agree on a contract. An independent arbitrator makes a decision on every facet of the contract including wages. As a computer technician we are the highest paid group in my union. The way the union argues on how much salary i get is they go out in the private sector and use comparable wages to put in front of the arbitrator. I do not even make close to half of the numbers you are talking about yet I am paid an equivalent to what employees in the private sector are paid. I think your numbers might be inacurate.

 

[gemini5362]

Builder you pay your framers 12.00 an hour. Are they employed by you. Do you have to pay unemployment insurance on them or are they contractors. Do you give them any kind of sick pay provision or is it if they dont show up to work they dont get paid. What kind of group health insurance plan do you have for them. Any kind of group dental or vision insurance. Do you have a workmens comp policy in place for them? If you have workers who you have hired it costs a lot more to pay them than just the basic hourly wage. However if you have them as contractors then you are paying just the 12.00 an hour for them to live on and that is sad.

 

[WilliamBos]

I am sure that number includes benefits. Under benefit you have the part of the health insurance premiums the company pays, you have social security benefits employer pays, you have unemployment insurance premiums employers pay, plus any other negotiated benefits. if you had these benefits up they are almost always quite a bit more than the actual salary employees are paid. I am sure that the employees are not getting 71.00 an hours

that is correct. $35 an hour plus benefits, but the mistake they made was agreeing to cover benefits until the employee dies, (post-retirement.)that is why they are in trouble.

 

[gemini5362]

I would imagine the 35.00 an hour is for the top level top step employee which usually means someone that has been there for several years. It takes about 6 years for me to reach top step and that is because my employer is very short of electronic techs. most others are 10 to 15 years

 

[CinderSchnauzer]

Builder you keep making allegations to what UAW employees are paid. Do you have any facutal evidence to back those numbers up. I admit I dont have a clue as to what they make.

Facts - try this. Not 100% up to date, but still interesting.

http://chryslerlabortalks07.com/Economic_Data.rtf

 

[WilliamBos]

Facts - try this. Not 100% up to date, but still interesting.

http://chryslerlabortalks07.com/Economic_Data.rtf

Thank you!!

 

[gemini5362]

those numbers are not suprising to read but about what I expected except I wished I was working as an electrician they make more than I do. On the otherhand my employer wont go bankrupt.


One of the things I noticed in those numbers werre that they were for employees with over 15 years of service.

As I said in an earlier post all the other things employers pay besides wages often is more than the wages themselves. Is why a lot of companies prefer to pay overtime. Working their workers and paying 1.5 times their base rate of pay for overtime is still a lot cheaper than hiring new employees

 

[jeffster]

I am not going to say what I do, but I have been reading the union comments and have refrained from replying until now. I can tell you that we have union members in some locations and they are the most difficult and often obnoxious people to deal with. The younger guys aren't too bad, but then they are indoctrinated in to the "union" way of thinking and they too become lazy and difficult. I work 60+ hours each week (salary) and don't complain. I get paid well for what I do and being on call 24/7 is just life. I don't get paid when those 2am calls come in, but I also am well respected because of the effort I put out. The union guys, on the other hand, absolutely are inflexible with their schedules and god forbid if they are late getting a break, lest they file a grievance. It is ridiculous. I understand not wanting to be abused, but come on...

My other issue with unions is during financially difficult years, like we are seeing now. Our business went through some rough times a number of years back and layoffs happened all across the board, from the bottom guys to the top brass. While layoffs are never fun for anyone, the union was the one that went ballistic, picketed, etc. While I am sure the smarter ones understand the big picture, the environment they create with this crap is one that fosters ignorance. If a company is going to survive in tough times, you have to trim the fat, and sometimes even some of the muscle. If you don't, NOBODY has a job, and that is the part they absolutely don't want to acknowledge. This is the same at UAW. You HAVE to make severe concessions to make the automakers sustainable so that you have jobs. The American auto industry has been absolutely hobbled by the unions.

I hope I don't come across as a jerk here, as that is not my intent at all. I just have to ask this to anyone who sides with UAW though. I have to be the best at my job every day. I work hard, and thankfully, I have a job that is hopefully not going anywhere. My drive to deliver quality work is a combo of my own pride but also knowing that if I don't do a good job, it doesn't take much for me to be replaced with someone that will. Now, let's look at a union guy who knows that if he can skate by with average work, he knows that he is going to be set in most cases. If that INDIVIDUAL does not have the drive to produce the best work he can, what motivation is there?