Solar Interest and Selling Power Back

   / Solar Interest and Selling Power Back #61  
In following with the title of this thread; (but not to do with the initial
question):
With the gathering momentum money and interest in electric cars, it is
probable that they will be common.
Much is said about the coming stress on the existing power grid and all
of the problem pressure points this will cause.

What if this could be headed off before it is out of hand?

California has a program is in place to buy power from Tesla Powerwall units
at times of great electrical demand. (did I hear at $4.00 per KWH?)
A Powerwall is about 10KWH. The amount of power that can be used from the
owners battery is adjustable and 'tunable': you can opt in/out for certain times.

Late model electric car batteries are around 60KWH.
These cars are charged by and connected to the grid.

A large scale adapted vehicle-to-grid scheme might accomplish a few things:
-Time shift power demand on utilities.
-reduce power disruptions from 'brownouts'
-reduce the need for 'peaking plants' built to ride out solar
and wind shortcomings.
-decentralize the existing large and aging electrical grid.
-combined with solar production to avail a different power source.

Supposing that the needs of the electric utilities, the requirements of the
car owners and the needed level of safety and reliability could be engineered
into this scheme it could become a viable thing.
In addition to or in place of huge 'battery farms' already coming to a
place near you. EV batteries will soon be a standing resource.

Maybe in addition to, or replacing part of the infrastructure bill spending
making power a two-way street could be something
Needed compromises on the utilities part would be titanic, power brokers across the
nationwide grid would need oceanic adaptations. The engineering exists now.
California may be laughed at and criticized, but many times it leads the way.

This is just an idea.
What happens when all the Tesla owners arrive home at 6pm during nov-feb when it is dark and plug those in all at once? How is some going to offset that?


I don’t see batteries as the solution at least not today’s. Nor tomorrows. Do you know what rare earth and materials go into those? Or how they are disposed? Have you seen the cost to replace the battery bank in an ev and can you extrapolate to replacing a power wall? Talk about UNsustainability!
 
   / Solar Interest and Selling Power Back #62  
What many on this thread are missing are four key points:

1)Your local utility (large, co-op, or municipal) is not the same as others. The needs, rules, usage profiles, etc are all different and Not only does one size not fit all, it isn’t even the same article of clothing!

2). Your state and local laws are not the same as others. There are state laws then there are electric grid operators and consortiums, each acting and interacting in different manners.

3). The way your provider purchases electricity and their relationship to the poles and wires providers differs from state to state and even locality to locality. Here southeast of Dallas I have a regulated poles and wires provider (Oncor) but they have nothing to do with what I pay for the energy part of electricity - I can shop around for that. Each of the potential providers has a different energy charge but the poles and wires charges are the same for each. However, 5 miles away is an area served by a coop who purchases power AND does poles and wires so everyone served by that coop pay the exact same total cost/kWh. And that’s just in a part of Texas; certain cities are similar to coops (but different!) and not all of Texas is even on the same grid so federal rules make things more different.

4) MOST IMPORTANT!!! States and other govt entities are CHANGING laws and procedures constantly with respect to this. No matter what you think is a good deal today, a new law tomorrow can change or invalidate the whole economies of your installation.
 
   / Solar Interest and Selling Power Back #63  
Im a family of 4, all electric, geothermal, central ohio climate.......and I am usually ~1300kwh in the spring and fall when very little HVAC is needed. ~1700-1800 in the heat of the summer and peak AC loading. And ~2300 in the coldest months of the winter.

I do run some rope LED lights, a waterfall pump, and leave the front LED porch light on that total ~250w.........or about 180kwh per month. Thats about the ONLY think I could eliminate to conserve energy if I truly wanted to.

My shop is on a separate meter. Im only at my shop on average 1-2 times a week. With ONLY a fridge, and a 175w dusk to dawn running when Im not down there......I still hit 5-6kwh per day. So dont understand how a WHOLE home with SEVEN people can live on ~13kwh/day unless everything is a gas appliance and the ONLY thing your electric does is lights and a fridge
Speaking from personal experience, you might want to consider buying yourself a new shop fridge. Our electrical bill went down by about 40% replacing the house fridge with a new one, and then another 40% when we replaced the freezer. Both of the new units were bigger, too.
What happens when all the Tesla owners arrive home at 6pm during nov-feb when it is dark and plug those in all at once? How is some going to offset that?


I don’t see batteries as the solution at least not today’s. Nor tomorrows. Do you know what rare earth and materials go into those? Or how they are disposed? Have you seen the cost to replace the battery bank in an ev and can you extrapolate to replacing a power wall? Talk about UNsustainability!
Electric vehicles charge when they are programmed to. Almost all of them charge when the rates are lowest, as in midnight around here.

Battery technology and chemistry is still evolving; you should check the recent announcements from Ford, GM, and VW, who are sourcing different materials from around the world (US, Canada, and China), some of them with differing technologies. The value of old batteries hasn't escaped others either. There are lots of folks working on optimal ways to recycle, in the same way folks are working in recycling old wind turbine blades. For both, you need enough old ones to run a business. Early days.

Replacing a Powerwall is just disconnecting three wire nuts, a connector, lifting the old one off, hanging a new one on the old bracket and reconnecting the wires; currently that would run you around $7,000, but every Powerwall ever made is still under the original ten year warranty, so it won't be happening anytime soon. The only hard bit is lifting the Powerwalls on and off as they weigh about 275lbs. Fortunately there is a tool for that.

For perspective, a Powerwall is a 13.4kWh battery. A Nissan Leaf with the big battery option is 60kWh, and a Ford Lightning E-150 is 98kWh or 131kWh in the extended range version. I.e. the extended range E150 has about ten times the capacity of a Powerwall.

@Beeenvenue I agree the tariffs and regulations are evolving, and something to definitely bear in mind. I would add that Power companies are generally out there to look out for themselves, so I think an expectation that their tariffs will escalate for everyone is to be expected. Locally, the turf battle has started, and something will get done to charge all users for the fixed costs of the grid, solar included. The current per kWh grid fees aren't going to cut it. What the tariff looks like and how much it ends up for each of us individually is going to be very, very local, and absolutely unknowable today. No power company sets a fixed 25 year tariff, and rightfully so. They don't know the future either.

All the best,

Peter
 
   / Solar Interest and Selling Power Back #64  
I didn't read all posts but I thought about solar 30 years ago since I have a large 2 story garage, lots of south facing roof area.
At the time I figured it this way: batteries make sense if you want power storage otherwise you're just adding to the grid, then billed for what I use LESS what I add back.
In Virginia, and I just called a few weeks ago about solar, I'm charged retail 11c/Kwh and my solar is bought back at wholesale 4c/Kwh.
Then I thought I have two choices: I could buy solar, let's say $15K or invest that $15K.
In 30 years that invested $15K return far exceeded the solar return.
The local power company fellow I spoke with a few weeks ago said he helped his brother install solar recently, but he himself wouldn't have it. To me it's something else to fool with, if power goes out it's the power company responsibility not mine.
Another concern would be roof repairs unless it's mounted on the ground.
I gave it serious thought, for me not worth it.
 
   / Solar Interest and Selling Power Back #65  
I didn't read all posts but I thought about solar 30 years ago since I have a large 2 story garage, lots of south facing roof area.
At the time I figured it this way: batteries make sense if you want power storage otherwise you're just adding to the grid, then billed for what I use LESS what I add back.
In Virginia, and I just called a few weeks ago about solar, I'm charged retail 11c/Kwh and my solar is bought back at wholesale 4c/Kwh.
Then I thought I have two choices: I could buy solar, let's say $15K or invest that $15K.
In 30 years that invested $15K return far exceeded the solar return.
The local power company fellow I spoke with a few weeks ago said he helped his brother install solar recently, but he himself wouldn't have it. To me it's something else to fool with, if power goes out it's the power company responsibility not mine.
Another concern would be roof repairs unless it's mounted on the ground.
I gave it serious thought, for me not worth it.
ONLY if you are a good investor and the company you invest in doesn’t crash.
 
   / Solar Interest and Selling Power Back
  • Thread Starter
#66  
Yea, since 2008 anyone with any sense could make money investing. It's a whole different game now.
 
   / Solar Interest and Selling Power Back #67  
Speaking from personal experience, you might want to consider buying yourself a new shop fridge. Our electrical bill went down by about 40% replacing the house fridge with a new one, and then another 40% when we replaced the freezer. Both of the new units were bigger, too.



Peter

The ONLY way replacing a fridge can lower your bill by 40% is IF the fridge is already using MORE than 40% of your household electric.

My 175w dusk to dawn light is on for 15hrs+ a day in the winter. So thats half my usage right there when no one is at the shop. That leaves the garage fridge consuming ~2.5kwh / day. or ~90kwh per month........

Even if a new one were twice as efficient.....I'd save 45kwh per month.....

And you say a new fridge saved you 40%???? does that mean you only use a total of ~110kwh per month of electric?

At ~11¢ per kwh......I think I'll pass on the "hypothetical" savings of a whole $5/month. I'll stick to my free beer fridge rather than pay $1000+ for a new fridge full of electronic BS with a life expectancy of less than 5 years, and constant problems. I HATE new appliances. Id rather pay the power company a few extra bucks then have to pay the repair man to be here constantly
 
   / Solar Interest and Selling Power Back #68  
We saw in another thread the cost to replace Volt Battery 29k

But no worries as there is a line item recycling fee if $1.50 added.
What happens when all the Tesla owners arrive home at 6pm during nov-feb when it is dark and plug those in all at once? How is some going to offset that?


I don’t see batteries as the solution at least not today’s. Nor tomorrows. Do you know what rare earth and materials go into those? Or how they are disposed? Have you seen the cost to replace the battery bank in an ev and can you extrapolate to replacing a power wall? Talk about UNsustainability!
 
   / Solar Interest and Selling Power Back #69  
Climate is the biggest factor combined with lifestyle to my thinking

Oakland CA climate is excellent based on number of heating and cooling days for major metro areas...

The 12kW daily average year in and year out is for a family of 3 in a non energy efficient 1950's home of 2500 square feet.

Electricity for Cooking and Laundry...

Gas for Hot Water and Furnace...

Growing up the only time the furnace was on was Christmas when Grandparents and my Great Great Great Aunt came to stay...

I've worked out the numbers on appliances and have decided in favor of longevity... I hope they last forever at this point.

A 22 cubic feet 1967 freezer just keeps humming along... it is packed full and due to rolling power outages I have added some two liter water bottles to carry over for the 36 hour outages and a full freezer keeps things frozen for a long time with power.

The 29 cubic feet 1980 Refrigerator just keeps going two...

Yesterday I dusted the coils which is the only attention it gets...

Doubt much energy savings replacing the 1967 Kenmore Electric Dryer... in 55 years only a $4 dryer belt.

TV is Zenith 25" console circa 1980...

What I do find interesting is the neighbors being resigned to major appliance replacements every 7 to 10 years... the fancy LG energy saver refrig isn't using any electricity now as it stopped working 7 years in.

Another single widow had nothing but problems were her energy saver Neptune pair...

As for flat screens saving money I'm sure that is true taking out a 25" CRT for a 25 flat but how does that work when the 25" is replaced with a 65" or 80"?

LED light is a miracle in my thinking... this is where we saved a bundle... each bedroom had ceiling fixture with 3 or 4 100W bulbs... maybe why we never used the furnace in winter!!!
 
   / Solar Interest and Selling Power Back #70  
Family of seven......only using 400kwh....

Must be all gas? Gas water heater, gas stove, gas dryer?
Yes. Gas (converted to propane) tankless water heater and stove, electric dryer when too cold to hang on the line. Only use the dishwasher and other appliances during the day.
I should have said that better....
I use more but only have to buy about 400 kWh from the grid during the hot months.
 

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