Solar radiant Heat

   / Solar radiant Heat
  • Thread Starter
#111  
ampsucker,
I used these staps be cause of cost only. By project end I will have used about 1000.
The 2" space is what was specified by radiantec. I plan on tacking the sides to the floor joist then butt the bottom cap to them. The Celotec is foiled faced and that I hope will help reflected the heat up.

Phil
 
   / Solar radiant Heat #112  
also curious about the 2" air space. is it that important or could you just attach the celotek foam board to the bottom of the joists saving some work and install time and basically making an 8 or 10" air space? seems like you would eventually heat up the enclosed space and the floor joists would become heat transfer elements as well, although i could see it would lower set point reponse time. amp
The 2" space is there for the heat to spread out. You need the rest of the joist space insulated to keep the heat going up rather than radiating down. If one uses the thin alum sheets to spread out the heat, then the 2" is still required. If you use the thick alum extruded plates.. then you insulate the entire joist space with no gap. It all has to do with heat flow and control.

HTH
 
   / Solar radiant Heat
  • Thread Starter
#113  
Thanks for the clarification Jim. They only specified the thin aluminum plates under the carpet space in the master bed room and the ceramic tile floor in the bath room.
Phil
 
   / Solar radiant Heat #114  
I installed the 2" of foil faced foam to the bottom of my floor joists - no problems, works great in my house for over 10 years.

There are sources that are significantly cheaper than some mentioned here. But they probably do not provide the advice that these do.

Ken
 
   / Solar radiant Heat #115  
I installed the 2" of foil faced foam to the bottom of my floor joists - no problems, works great in my house for over 10 years.
Ken
Ken, will what you did work.. obviously yes, but based on calculations to optimize heat transfer to the rooms above, the designers have spec'ed out the 2" gap to maximize the heat transfer to above. Is there a significant difference... I suspect not. One thing to keep in mind is that over time dust will settle on the reflective foil and it will loose some, or most, of its effectiveness.
 
   / Solar radiant Heat #116  
i suspect the 2" gap would be a minimum recommended distance for IR reflection. More should not matter. For standard foam installation without heat in the floor, some recommend 3/4" minimum with 1 1/2" preferred. The dust will be a problem regardless. By the way, you are losing heat through the uninsulated floor joists :) And the install is MUCH harder by installing it in between the floor joists. Regardless of how it is done, the fire fighters would like to have the foam covered by something like drywall or plywood so if there is a fire, they do not have poisonous fumes or molten foam dripping down on you or them. I used construction adhesive and glued painted osb to the foam and installed it as a unit in part of the basement.

As an aside, i did not use the metal plates the manufacturer recommended, again no problems. I had nails sticking slightly through the floor, so i bought some rolls of 12" wide corrugated cardboard and stapled this to the underside of the floor (will slow down the heat transfer slightly but less than everything above it any ways). I had checked first with a piece of cardboard that i pressed hard with my thumb and the nails did not poke through. Long nails that missed joists etc., i either cut or more often stuck a piece of 1" x 1" foam insulation end wise onto the nail. That worked well to prevent getting the nails poking into the tubing during installation. I was worried about being able to rearrange tubing because we were going to renovate at some point so i used scrap cutoffs from siding my barn to sandwich the tubing against the floor (two runs of tubing per cavity so the screw was in the middle of the board with a piece of tubing to each side) - was supposed to be temporary and then i was going to rent a stapler. Worked so well, i never changed it.

During a subsequent renovation, a contractor who was warned about heat in the floor did shoot a long nail through some blocking on the floor, missing the floor joist completely and going through a tube. Sealed pretty well! Was several years later before we saw it when we removed the insulation for access for some wiring.

A few years ago we renovated the rest of the house and ran it the same way minus the cardboard since it was not necessary. Since that was an exposed crawlspace (post foundation), we used 4" of foam (2 layers of 2" foam, staggered seams) and covered it with PT plywood. Probably overkill. That whole addition that we gutted and redid is so well insulated (fiberglass in the stud cavities, 2" of foam with an air gap on the inside) that the snow does not form icicles, etc. and takes nothing to heat. Now if only the other part of the house was that well insulated.

Ken
 
   / Solar radiant Heat #117  
Ken, no doubt what you did is working for you, I know lots of folks who have done it that way.. it just could be better, more efficient. For example, based on the heat load calculations for my kitchen. If I had installed the radiant tubing like you or Phil did, I could not get enough heat into my kitchen to keep it at 68dF on a 0dF day. I would need an additional 9000 BTU's per hour of supplemental heat. This would mean, more plumbing, another zone, another zone pump/valve and more electrical to run for an under cabinet kick board heater. By installing the radiant tubing in the thicker extruded aluminum plates and screwing them to the underside of the flooring and properly insulating, I don't need to add the supplemental heat. So it is a balancing of cost vs performance vs payback.
 
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   / Solar radiant Heat #118  
Hi Jim,

My biggest concern was a shallow but wide two story tall cathedral room (the built their kitchen like this - go figure). It had 9' of sliding glass doors and then 6' of sliding glass doors used above as a window. So for the 4' closest to the wall, i pulled the "top of the loop" of tubing back giving me 4 "runs" of pipe near the exterior. I was not sure if this would work but figured worst case i would add some radiators. Fortunately, it has worked real well. This was part of an open downstairs which i made into two zones.

The aluminum plates probably help quite a bit in giving a quicker response. With in floor heat like mine, i do not set back the temperature because it can take a while to come back to temperature.

I also have to adjust (lower) the temperature of the water at the beginning and end of the season or my system will over shoot. I could never justify the expense of the automated mixing valves but they are probably the way to go.

Ken
 
   / Solar radiant Heat #119  
Phil,

Just wondering how your system has been doing now that we're further into winter?
Any problems getting the panels up to temp on cold or cloudy days?
 
   / Solar radiant Heat
  • Thread Starter
#120  
Zick,
Cold day's with sun,I have seen it up to 160 . Thin cloudy day maybe 90. This is still a boost from ground temp of 52 currently. Some days nothing. But it's still more than what I had.
Phil
 

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