Stand by generators

[Mechanos]

I've been looking into a whole house setup as well. What complicates my situation is the load necessary to power the house during the winter is significantly more than during the summer. Our house is 100% electric... Air source heat pump with electric resistance back-up heat, electric range, electric clothes dryer, electric water heater, etc. etc. Some things could be done to cut down on the load requirement like not using the range and dryer at the same time, but the killer is when it's real cold and the air-source heat pump won't quite cut it and the systems calls for the back-up heat. So, a generator that will handle the winter loads would be overkill for the summer loads. My first choice would probably be propane (we don't have natural gas available) due to long term storage concerns, but may go with a diesel unit depending the "deal". I've done some loose analysis and based on those, I'd need a minimum of 19kW to get through a long-term outage in the winter.

 

[turbo36]

Generac whole house generator with natural gas. Basically "set and forget".

 

[s219]

I've been looking into a whole house setup as well. What complicates my situation is the load necessary to power the house during the winter is significantly more than during the summer. Our house is 100% electric... Air source heat pump with electric resistance back-up heat, electric range, electric clothes dryer, electric water heater, etc. etc. Some things could be done to cut down on the load requirement like not using the range and dryer at the same time, but the killer is when it's real cold and the air-source heat pump won't quite cut it and the systems calls for the back-up heat. So, a generator that will handle the winter loads would be overkill for the summer loads. My first choice would probably be propane (we don't have natural gas available) due to long term storage concerns, but may go with a diesel unit depending the "deal". I've done some loose analysis and based on those, I'd need a minimum of 19kW to get through a long-term outage in the winter.

Many heat pumps and geothermal units have an "emergency heat" mode (called Em Heat on my Honeywell thermostat) that only runs the backup strip heaters and fan, and does not fire up the compressor. It's intended for cases where you might have compressor failure but still need heat. I'd probably resort to that if I was running on generator in super cold weather and didn't have available wattage for everything. It also avoids possible startup spikes from the compressor that can skew your wattage needs too high.

There's another possibility that you can turn off the strip heaters (mine are on a separate breaker) and just deal with reduced/weak heat from the heat pump, which might suffice if you turned the thermostat down a bit or if it wasn't too cold.

 

[Recoveryhill]

Interesting perspective from the Caribbean. I wonder if the preference for gasoline and diesel generators there is due to a lack of availability and higher cost of natural gas and propane in the islands? Maybe for outages of a few hours a portable is ok but in this rural area we are subject to extended power loss due to ice storms and tornados.

We all cook on Propane, no Natural Gas available, but it's delivered in what, 80 pound cylinders, and is expensive at near $100 a tank. I'm led to believe that propane engines driving a genset are hungry, or thirsty, which ever is the case. Powering a generator with propane is just not done here, it's all diesel or gasoline. They set big tanks for restaurants and such that depend on truck delivery of propane but they won't come up into the mountains to bulk refill and depending on them to even make a timely delivery of an 80# cylinder is questionable. I've cooked on charcoal (carbón) for four days waiting on the truck. With gasoline I can "help myself".

I've gone almost three weeks on my 6.5 and for me, it's no problem although obviously an auto crank whole house unit would be mo convenient? Most here wouldn't know what to do with anything convenient! As before I'd just love to have that 12 kW Kubota unit but it's a matter of having better things to do with ten grand or so.

Glad you Generac performs well and may it do so for years. My intention was not to diss whoever makes their engines or their quality, it's just that Hondas are a known quantity and dependability here is everything. Warranty...what's that?

 

[Gary Fowler]

I've been looking into a whole house setup as well. What complicates my situation is the load necessary to power the house during the winter is significantly more than during the summer. Our house is 100% electric... Air source heat pump with electric resistance back-up heat, electric range, electric clothes dryer, electric water heater, etc. etc. Some things could be done to cut down on the load requirement like not using the range and dryer at the same time, but the killer is when it's real cold and the air-source heat pump won't quite cut it and the systems calls for the back-up heat. So, a generator that will handle the winter loads would be overkill for the summer loads. My first choice would probably be propane (we don't have natural gas available) due to long term storage concerns, but may go with a diesel unit depending the "deal". I've done some loose analysis and based on those, I'd need a minimum of 19kW to get through a long-term outage in the winter.

I looked into getting a whole house system, even had a contractor come out and look at my load center. Like you, I have 100% electrical house and the Generac installer said even a 20KvA unit would not power my heating coils as they alone take 100 amps plus the load of the heat pump and he would have to drop out one set of the heat coils to run the HVAC even with a 20KVA genset. Therefore I decided that it wasn't feasible to use a whole house unit and the cost to install was over $6K + having to run on propane at $2.50 per gallon and 4.8 gallons per hour made it too expensive to even run in long outages.
Instead, I have bought a 8000 running watt portable gasoline powered genset, a propane portable heater for bare heating essentials. The genset can power just about all my other household items although I would have to disconnect one of the heating elements from the hot water heater as it takes 9000 watts with both elements.
In summer heat, I would just put my 110v AC unit in the window of one bedroom to cool that at night and muddle thru during the day. MY portable genset (which I haven't had to use yet) is supposed to run 10 hours on a tank of gas(7 gallons) so that is much cheaper than running a whole house system all the time.

 

[GrandLakeGAR]

I agree Hondas are fine engines, I have one, along with a Kawasaki, a Kohler and a couple of Briggs. They all start easy at 85 degrees but when it gets down around zero even the Honda needs help. The specs for my 20kva Generac are 1.89 GPH at half load, 2.9 GPH at full load. The load will vary a lot during a run depending on the appliances in use. When I filled my 1000 gal house tank and 500 gal generator tank last sept propane was $1.35 a gallon. Seasonal price is higher now but if there are no long power outages I won't need more until next fall. There are numerous propane dealers in my area and delivery is never a problem. Owning the tanks lets me shop for the best price. I still have a 6500 watt portable, to use for welding, air compressor, etc but I sure don't miss the hook up and general nuisance of using it for house power. My portable run time per tank is based on half load, I think that is the standard way they are all rated. Figure gasoline at $3 and the cost per kW between propane and gasoline is not too far off. As I said in my first post, I have done it both ways and for me the auto whole house set up is much better.

 

[GManBart]

Many heat pumps and geothermal units have an "emergency heat" mode (called Em Heat on my Honeywell thermostat) that only runs the backup strip heaters and fan, and does not fire up the compressor. It's intended for cases where you might have compressor failure but still need heat. I'd probably resort to that if I was running on generator in super cold weather and didn't have available wattage for everything. It also avoids possible startup spikes from the compressor that can skew your wattage needs too high.

There's another possibility that you can turn off the strip heaters (mine are on a separate breaker) and just deal with reduced/weak heat from the heat pump, which might suffice if you turned the thermostat down a bit or if it wasn't too cold.

This kind of info is what makes TBN such a valuable resource for things far beyond tractors!

 

[IXLR8]

When I filled my 1000 gal house tank and 500 gal generator tank last sept propane was $1.35 a gallon.

Gas is $3.50/gallon here, last time I looked propane was $3.85/gallon!! Home heating oil, aka diesel for generator, was $3.45/gallon. If diesel generators didn't cost 2-3x what a gas generator cost it would be a no brainer to go diesel. But I can buy a lot of gas for the price difference between a diesel and gas generator.

 

[econometrics]

Gas is $3.50/gallon here, last time I looked propane was $3.85/gallon!! Home heating oil, aka diesel for generator, was $3.45/gallon. If diesel generators didn't cost 2-3x what a gas generator cost it would be a no brainer to go diesel. But I can buy a lot of gas for the price difference between a diesel and gas generator.

Yeah, that $1.35/gal for LP is CHEAP!

I just paid $2.50/gal for my 1000 gallon tank to be filled.

 

[3930dave]

Regional availability and pricing are probably all over map, pun intended, but for you all-electric guys, I'd be pricing out a good quality wood pellet stove, and pellets.

Spreadsheet the costs - if a pellet stove would work in your house for emergency heat, then you would be able to downsize your whole house generator significantly.

I have a friend who has a very high efficiency propane furnace, but he prefers to heat with his pellet stove. He buys his pellets by the skid, to get good pricing.

Rgds, D.

 

[jaydee325]

The genset can power just about all my other household items although I would have to disconnect one of the heating elements from the hot water heater as it takes 9000 watts with both elements.

Gary,

Check the schematic of your water heater. I have a 8000 watt water heater but only the top 4000 watt heater runs until the top of the heater is hot (a.k.a quick recovery element). Once the top is hot, the bottom 4000 watt heater comes on and heats the remainder of the tank. You can also verify this with a volt meter.

I have a 5500 watt continuous generator and can run the water heater with manual load management without disconnecting either element.

Bob

 

[azkubotaguy]

We just built a new home about a year ago on a couple of acres, as we built I had preparedness in mind. I had installed a 500 gallon underground propane tank that we use to cook with only, basically the stove and bbq are hooked up to it. I bought a 7000/8750 watt Blackmax Generator at Sam's Club that has a Honda engine in it, I purchased a Tri-Fuel Conversion Kit from Central Maine Diesel, it will run gas, natural gas, & propane. Then had a electrician install a transfer switch that runs our well, the entire house (2 Refrigerators, 1 deep freeze, lights, etc. - except my central heating & air conditioning. All I have to do is disconnect the propane line from my bbq and hook it up to the generator, plug in the cord from generator to transfer switch and we are back up and running. This setup has worked very well and it handles everything we want until we can later afford one of the big generators that will run everything. We have about $ 1800.00 into this setup with the generator, transfer switch, 100 ft cord for generator to transfer switch, and the conversion kit.

 

[Recoveryhill]

This setup has worked very well and it handles everything we want until we can later afford one of the big generators that will run everything. We have about $ 1800.00 into this setup with the generator, transfer switch, 100 ft cord for generator to transfer switch, and the conversion kit.

Yup, that's the story. The OP was asking about options and you can go large or you can go small but small like yours at less than two thousand will do a nice job if you're not heating or cooling the mansion on the hill. Again, I have better places to park ten thousand dolla than in a genset but everyone is different.

Since I don't run my mini all night and since after a bad storm we generally lose all breeze for a few days I have an auto battery in my bedroom closet and purchased a strong 12 vDC fan that I aim at my bed at night. Ahhhh luxury on the cheap.

One facet of electricity down here I forgot to mention is the dreaded "Brown Out". You can surge protect up to your ears but when our "friends" at the power station go from 60 cycle to 40 cycle power over the span of a couple of hours, everybody suffers. It is especially hard on refrigeration compressors and not good for anything. For this quality and frequent outages we pay sixty cents per kilowatt hour!

 

[southerndeere]

First thing you should probably do is do a load analysis. These would be the things you must run. Total the watts and this will better allow you to size the generator. I have a miller welder/generator 8000watts. I only run a refridgerator, some lights, tv and well water pump. In summer a window unit AC. This works for me. Not long ago I purchased a HF 8700 watt generator. It is largest they sell not sure if I posted correct wattage. I have used it once during a power failure this past summer. It was good to have that window AC.

I use a newer miller bobcat with 10000 avaliable watts. If I'm smart about my loads it will start my ac unit. Even starts my 2hp well. But like I said I have to be smart about my loads. I also installed a manual transfer switch on my house. Was gonna buy a 15 kw generac portable but guy backed out at minute. Had as all 8kw pto but never did like the idea of my tractor running at 540 pto speeds for hours on end. Butback to the welder. I think its best option for small farms because of its so many versitile uses.

 

[3930dave]

One facet of electricity down here I forgot to mention is the dreaded "Brown Out". You can surge protect up to your ears but when our "friends" at the power station go from 60 cycle to 40 cycle power over the span of a couple of hours, everybody suffers. It is especially hard on refrigeration compressors and not good for anything. For this quality and frequent outages we pay sixty cents per kilowatt hour!

Ok, from now on I'll whine less about my electricity bill !

Perhaps you have gone this way already ? With how inexpensive high power inverters have become, in your case I'd be tempted to set up one with a battery or 2 to run a fridge or freezer. Line charge the batteries, if you can find a charger to tolerate 40hz.

With what you describe for "line" power, does anybody use Sunfrost fridges, esp. the DC powered ones ?

Rgds, D.

 

[southerndeere]

Ok, from now on I'll whine less about my electricity bill !

Perhaps you have gone this way already ? With how inexpensive high power inverters have become, in your case I'd be tempted to set up one with a battery or 2 to run a fridge or freezer. Line charge the batteries, if you can find a charger to tolerate 40hz.

With what you describe for "line" power, does anybody use Sunfrost fridges, esp. the DC powered ones ?

Rgds, D.

A good automatic transfer switch an a generator would solve the brown out problem. Use to have same problem in our are at peak hours until they spent 600 mill upgrading grid

 

[Oiltech]

I have a 22kw PTO generator that is 3 years old and hasn't been used yet. The main reason was not to have another engine sitting up not getting used. Another advantage is I can bring the generator to any other property I own and supply adequate power and can also power my mig welder in the field

 

[Toyboy]

I looked into getting a whole house system, even had a contractor come out and look at my load center. Like you, I have 100% electrical house and the Generac installer said even a 20KvA unit would not power my heating coils as they alone take 100 amps plus the load of the heat pump and he would have to drop out one set of the heat coils to run the HVAC even with a 20KVA genset. Therefore I decided that it wasn't feasible to use a whole house unit and the cost to install was over $6K + having to run on propane at $2.50 per gallon and 4.8 gallons per hour made it too expensive to even run in long outages.
Instead, I have bought a 8000 running watt portable gasoline powered genset, a propane portable heater for bare heating essentials. The genset can power just about all my other household items although I would have to disconnect one of the heating elements from the hot water heater as it takes 9000 watts with both elements.
In summer heat, I would just put my 110v AC unit in the window of one bedroom to cool that at night and muddle thru during the day. MY portable genset (which I haven't had to use yet) is supposed to run 10 hours on a tank of gas(7 gallons) so that is much cheaper than running a whole house system all the time.

Where did you come up with the 4.8 gal per hour to run a 20kw on propane? Generac owners manual says 1.89 on 1/2 load and 2.90 on full load. Odds of you running full load for any extended time would be unusual. When we're running stand by, we're very conscious of what we are using and pay attention to space loads out or postpone some things to a later time.
Some things have to run, well, heat, fridge, some lights , etc. Odds of them all kicking in at the same time? I'd say remote to never. They all may end up running at the same time, but all starting at the same time. Doubtful. Other than that you will call the shots.

 

[southerndeere]

Wow 100 ampsfor ur heating coils? Must be 1 heckuva unit. Been in generator business for over 10 years an we sell more 10 to 15 kw units than anythings. A 20 kw unit will power most houses just fine. But as with most generators u have to be smart with ur load. Because with most loads its start up that sucks up the wattage. Except for resistive loads like heaters stoves etc

 

[crazyal]

What people need to realize is that the answer to this question isn't as simple as calculating your load. How much work are you willing to do? A PTO generator is a good option if you have a tractor that isn't needed or can live without power while the tractor is in use for other tasks. Then that brings up the next question. Are you willing to spend a few minutes to turn on and off breakers. If you've been using your tractor bringing feed to the livestock and the power has been off for a few hours once you connect the gen back up it's very possible all the fridges and freezers will come on at once, possibly the furnace, the well pump and what ever else was running when you shut off the power. That will take quite a bit of power. However if you turn off all the breakers and one by one turn them on and let each device do what it needs to and then shut off you can get by with a smaller (cheaper) generator.

As for the type of fuel, each has it's advantages and disadvantages. Diesel is usually easy to get for most, even during power outages. It can be stored for long periods of time with additives. Stand alone diesels are expensive (because of the engine). Propane stores nicely. But you need a large tank. Getting your tank filled during an emergency can be hard. For me it's impossible during an ice storm. Even during the winter it requires me to put down a thick layer of sand on the road for the truck. Natural gas is nice if you have it going to your house. If the gas company shuts it off you are dead in the water. Shouldn't be an issue with a snow storm but in an earthquake lines could be broken. Gasoline is cheap and portable. Usually most people have 5 gallons around the house for things like lawn mowers and snow blowers. Gas can get hard to find in large power outages since more people want gas vs diesel. The downside is they don't usually have as long of a life as a diesel and they can be noisy.

For me a diesel stand alone makes the most sense with a tractor pto not far behind. Right now my Honda 4200 is getting me by but it's a little small for my needs. What ever replaces it will need to be something that will last 20 years+ and will need to be able to start up without any monkeying around. I always have at least 50 gallons of treated diesel around for the tractor vs maybe 10 gallons of gas. The standalone makes more sense for me because most times we loose poer I need the tractor for storm clearing (snow, trees, ice, sanding the drive, etc.) One option I would like would be to get a generator that could be set up for PTO use and later be converted to standalone down the road.