tractorshopper
Veteran Member
Genious. I love this thinking of solutions to work with what you have. The "sled" as you call it is a great idea. I will be following this thread closely. Thanks for sharing.
Starting a Barn
- Thread starter Sinecure
- Start date
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Thanks Tractorshopper. I appreciate the nice comments.
The sled is actually working better than I thought it would. I would not want to drive 20 foot 6x6's all around my property mounted in the sled, but for moving and setting them right near the site - so far it has been going fairly smoothly.
After about my third post, I did tighten the bolts holding the sled to the pallet fork frame and recheck for plumb. I may need to wrap a ratchet strap around the bottom of the sled and tighten that down so the sled won't want to move. I am trying to avoid having to make major adjustments to the posts once I get them set on the footers. If I can keep the sled fairly plumb, the majority of fine tuning is pretty easy with the knobs on the tripod holder.
First set of center aisle posts up and mounted.
As I mentioned before, there will be a shorter set of posts installed to the left of these posts which will make up the rear stalls / lean-to.
I am also going to have to do some additional grading and shaping at the rear of the barn to control water runoff/etc. This is another reason why I am leaving these set of posts until later.
The sled is actually working better than I thought it would. I would not want to drive 20 foot 6x6's all around my property mounted in the sled, but for moving and setting them right near the site - so far it has been going fairly smoothly.
After about my third post, I did tighten the bolts holding the sled to the pallet fork frame and recheck for plumb. I may need to wrap a ratchet strap around the bottom of the sled and tighten that down so the sled won't want to move. I am trying to avoid having to make major adjustments to the posts once I get them set on the footers. If I can keep the sled fairly plumb, the majority of fine tuning is pretty easy with the knobs on the tripod holder.
First set of center aisle posts up and mounted.
As I mentioned before, there will be a shorter set of posts installed to the left of these posts which will make up the rear stalls / lean-to.
I am also going to have to do some additional grading and shaping at the rear of the barn to control water runoff/etc. This is another reason why I am leaving these set of posts until later.
s219
Super Member
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I hate it when the clay gobs up on the bottom of your boot. Even worse when other stuff (gravel, pine straw, etc) sticks to that. Pretty soon it's like having 15 extra pounds on each leg. Makes ladder work a real joy.
Very good work so far, and I think you're doing great inventing ways to get the job done by yourself.
Are those carriage bolts at the base of the post? They don't look like they are sitting flush with the bracket -- might be better with a regular bolt and washer? On a side note, I recently learned that carriage bolts are not rated or accepted by code for structural use, which seems odd to me. But I looked it up and it was true. Not sure why.
Very good work so far, and I think you're doing great inventing ways to get the job done by yourself.
Are those carriage bolts at the base of the post? They don't look like they are sitting flush with the bracket -- might be better with a regular bolt and washer? On a side note, I recently learned that carriage bolts are not rated or accepted by code for structural use, which seems odd to me. But I looked it up and it was true. Not sure why.
S219 - Yes, the mud does make ladder work exciting and a work out.
Yes, they are carriage bolts. Good catch. I did not know that about them not being accepted for structural use, but you are correct. I will need to remove the ones I have installed and switch them out.
I am thinking I should have gone with an 1/2 inch diameter A325 Hex Bolt from the beginning. Thanks again.
Yes, they are carriage bolts. Good catch. I did not know that about them not being accepted for structural use, but you are correct. I will need to remove the ones I have installed and switch them out.
I am thinking I should have gone with an 1/2 inch diameter A325 Hex Bolt from the beginning. Thanks again.
MoKelly
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This is a fantastic thread and you will do just fine.
I am trying to learn a few things. One question (perhaps it is dumb) --- once you mount the post and bolt it to the base, how sturdy is it? Seems to me without the bracing the post would just fall over since it is so tall and the brace is so small? If so, how do you get structural strength to the building (i.e., the posts just don't sway)? Does it happen when you put up the ledger boards up?
MoKelly
I am trying to learn a few things. One question (perhaps it is dumb) --- once you mount the post and bolt it to the base, how sturdy is it? Seems to me without the bracing the post would just fall over since it is so tall and the brace is so small? If so, how do you get structural strength to the building (i.e., the posts just don't sway)? Does it happen when you put up the ledger boards up?
MoKelly
MoKelly - Thanks for the comments. I think it is a good question and will tell you what I have seen with regards to the initial install of the posts.
I also have an opinion on the structural aspect of the posts, but I would need to have an engineer chime in with the forces that come into play with posts and structural load/etc.
Once I get the post mounted on the base, I have simply nailed or screwed (using the structural simpson screws) through the post base to temporarily hold it in position. The post base has holes for this.
At this point, the post will stand up and not fall over unless I was to push it or put side to side pressure on it. I am able to drill screws into it from the braces I am attaching, so there is a desire to stand-up, but sure, if I wanted to I could knock it over.
The main purpose of the braces is to hold it in position (keep it aligned) until I can get horizontal beams installed between the braces. This will help tie the entire structure together and give it strength. It will then need some Y bracing/etc to prevent racking / twisting / etc.
My understanding of a post's job is that it is mainly taking a load from above and driving that force down to the ground or footer. For this reason, you want your posts to always remain straight. Bad things happen when the load is shifted from going straight down. The horizontal members, the ledger boards, the roof and collar ties all work together (or should) to tie everything together and give a structure strength.
Along the lines of your question, I will probably have my rear stall / lean-to posts cemented below ground to help further tie everything together.
I am sure there are people on these boards with a ton more knowledge than I. Please tell me if my thinking is off-base. Thanks.
I also have an opinion on the structural aspect of the posts, but I would need to have an engineer chime in with the forces that come into play with posts and structural load/etc.
Once I get the post mounted on the base, I have simply nailed or screwed (using the structural simpson screws) through the post base to temporarily hold it in position. The post base has holes for this.
At this point, the post will stand up and not fall over unless I was to push it or put side to side pressure on it. I am able to drill screws into it from the braces I am attaching, so there is a desire to stand-up, but sure, if I wanted to I could knock it over.
The main purpose of the braces is to hold it in position (keep it aligned) until I can get horizontal beams installed between the braces. This will help tie the entire structure together and give it strength. It will then need some Y bracing/etc to prevent racking / twisting / etc.
My understanding of a post's job is that it is mainly taking a load from above and driving that force down to the ground or footer. For this reason, you want your posts to always remain straight. Bad things happen when the load is shifted from going straight down. The horizontal members, the ledger boards, the roof and collar ties all work together (or should) to tie everything together and give a structure strength.
Along the lines of your question, I will probably have my rear stall / lean-to posts cemented below ground to help further tie everything together.
I am sure there are people on these boards with a ton more knowledge than I. Please tell me if my thinking is off-base. Thanks.
ace10
Silver Member
Maybe you've thought this through already but... you mention running your beams on top of the posts and connecting with simpson or similar hardware... I know you shot all the forms with a laser level, but did you check all the 6X6's for length before getting them upright?
I've found them to vary by up to a couple of inches. And cutting them to level once they're up is a bee itch. Been there done that. Not ever looking to doing it again.
I've found them to vary by up to a couple of inches. And cutting them to level once they're up is a bee itch. Been there done that. Not ever looking to doing it again.
Ace10 - Great question. Yes, I am measuring (and cutting if needed) all of the 6x6's for length prior to installing.
It is amazing what we learn after having done it the other way once before. I am with you. I am never looking to stand on top of a ladder with a running circular saw trying to level post tops again.
I think the first time I learned this lesson; my cut was so bad that I would have been better just leaving it long.
It is amazing what we learn after having done it the other way once before. I am with you. I am never looking to stand on top of a ladder with a running circular saw trying to level post tops again.
I think the first time I learned this lesson; my cut was so bad that I would have been better just leaving it long.
ace10
Silver Member
LOL.
I had to rent one of those monster 16" circular saws. And use a fence to guide the saw. Up at the top of a ladder. In the snow. I'm glad you took care of it, because that is one terrible task.
How about bringing in a few truckloads of 57 stone to control the mud?
I had to rent one of those monster 16" circular saws. And use a fence to guide the saw. Up at the top of a ladder. In the snow. I'm glad you took care of it, because that is one terrible task.
How about bringing in a few truckloads of 57 stone to control the mud?
The center aisle posts up and braced.
I still have the front aisle and overhang roof 20 footers to deal with, but I am done with the majority of them.
Most of the posts left to get up will be the stall posts so I should be able to get those up a little easier after having the learning curve of the 20 footers under my belt.
The photo below represents about where I am in real time with the build, so the updates will get a little further spaced out as I look to complete some things.
My main goal for this trip to the property is to get everything up (posts and cross beams) and tied together. This may be unrealistic, but we will have to see how it goes.
Ace10 - Yes, I have a couple of loads of gravel/crush run on order. I need to give it some thought on if I spread it all out or maybe just in one of the main aisle sections. I have some thoughts about installing some floor drains in the finished paver area and will eventually have to trench some lines for things. On the other hand, I don't like working in the mud. It is supposed the dry out over the next couple of days and the site does get full sun all day, so I may be alright going forward. It is a mess to work in when wet, but the clay around here dries out fairly quickly and gets pretty solid with just a little sun exposure.
I still have the front aisle and overhang roof 20 footers to deal with, but I am done with the majority of them.
Most of the posts left to get up will be the stall posts so I should be able to get those up a little easier after having the learning curve of the 20 footers under my belt.
The photo below represents about where I am in real time with the build, so the updates will get a little further spaced out as I look to complete some things.
My main goal for this trip to the property is to get everything up (posts and cross beams) and tied together. This may be unrealistic, but we will have to see how it goes.
Ace10 - Yes, I have a couple of loads of gravel/crush run on order. I need to give it some thought on if I spread it all out or maybe just in one of the main aisle sections. I have some thoughts about installing some floor drains in the finished paver area and will eventually have to trench some lines for things. On the other hand, I don't like working in the mud. It is supposed the dry out over the next couple of days and the site does get full sun all day, so I may be alright going forward. It is a mess to work in when wet, but the clay around here dries out fairly quickly and gets pretty solid with just a little sun exposure.
sld
Veteran Member
I watched this build last night and it ended in July 2013 incomplete. Did the guy finish it? Really cool project he did.
s219
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When I was grading my barn pad a couple months ago with that orange clay/sand they call "compactable fill" in this area, it got so **** sticky and nasty with rain that I got a load of #8 gravel delivered to cover it up, and that worked very well. #8 is about the size of pea gravel, but it's a crushed product so it settles and compacts much better. It's very easy to rake, and does a better job covering clay than crusher run does. I found crusher run will want to "mingle" with the clay and isn't quite homogeneous enough to rake easily. Also, straight gravel like #8 is self compacting, so no need to really roll or pack it too much after you put it down. If #8 is not available, #78 is very close.
I probably wouldn't worry about the existing carriage bolts unless someone here has more info about their rating/compliance and can raise a real concern. With the cost of bolts and the value of your time, might not really need to change out the existing carriage bolts, just switch over to regular bolts going forward?
I probably wouldn't worry about the existing carriage bolts unless someone here has more info about their rating/compliance and can raise a real concern. With the cost of bolts and the value of your time, might not really need to change out the existing carriage bolts, just switch over to regular bolts going forward?
BitChin1
Silver Member
Not sure - was wondering the same?
EddieWalker
Epic Contributor
Pros and cons to every type of construction. With the poles in the ground, you get the added strength of the ground holding them upright. With the posts mounted on top of the concrete pads, you now have to deal with racking. The poles wanting to fall over. The best way to do this is with sheething. plywood or OSB work great for this. It's what keeps a stick built house standing. Before plywood and OSB where so affordable and easy to get, they would put diagonal bracing at all the ouside corners to lock the building together and keep it upright. This goes back hundreds of years and it's how most houses where built before the 70's. Attach the bracing to the top of the outside corner and run it down to the sill plate at a 45 degree angle. With houses, it's always notched into the studs. On barns, it can become part of the purlins.
Attaching bracing at the tops of the posts, such as Y bracing gives you a little bit of support, but nothing close to what you want. The top plates and roofing structure are your enemy, they will want to force the posts and walls to move around. The basic idea of how modern construction works is that in theory, you should be able to put every piece of wood in place and not need any fasteners. Nails and screws are just there to keep them in place. The design should be with this in mind. If you need to hang a piece of lumber, then you need metal brackets or notches or some sort of support. Bolts for loads are not allowed because they split the wood in time. Bolts are only used to secure lumber in place that is already supported.
What are you going to use for your siding? If it includes OSB or plywood, then you won't have any issues. If it's going to be metal, that works too as it locks the walls together on the purlins.
Eddie
Attaching bracing at the tops of the posts, such as Y bracing gives you a little bit of support, but nothing close to what you want. The top plates and roofing structure are your enemy, they will want to force the posts and walls to move around. The basic idea of how modern construction works is that in theory, you should be able to put every piece of wood in place and not need any fasteners. Nails and screws are just there to keep them in place. The design should be with this in mind. If you need to hang a piece of lumber, then you need metal brackets or notches or some sort of support. Bolts for loads are not allowed because they split the wood in time. Bolts are only used to secure lumber in place that is already supported.
What are you going to use for your siding? If it includes OSB or plywood, then you won't have any issues. If it's going to be metal, that works too as it locks the walls together on the purlins.
Eddie
Thanks Eddie. I appreciate the comments and the information.
What I have always been told is exactly what you explained with regards to support/bracing/etc.
I plan on using a combination of all the above (lol). The rear stall posts will be concreted into the ground. I will also have a section that will be a farm office/small living space (the far right hand side of the structure), so that portion will obviously need to be OSB or plywood sheathed. The rest of the sections will be wood siding tied into purlins and diagonal bracing.
What I have always been told is exactly what you explained with regards to support/bracing/etc.
I plan on using a combination of all the above (lol). The rear stall posts will be concreted into the ground. I will also have a section that will be a farm office/small living space (the far right hand side of the structure), so that portion will obviously need to be OSB or plywood sheathed. The rest of the sections will be wood siding tied into purlins and diagonal bracing.
Third row of posts up. This row included a mix of 20 footers for the front center aisle and shorter posts for the front stalls.
For the shorter posts, after using the sled to set the first one - I found it easier to just carry them over and "walk them up" by hand. There are not that many, so this didn't prove to be too tough.
Not counting the rear set of stall posts, I only have four more to set and brace. These will be the front overhang roof (upper and lower) posts.
For the shorter posts, after using the sled to set the first one - I found it easier to just carry them over and "walk them up" by hand. There are not that many, so this didn't prove to be too tough.
Not counting the rear set of stall posts, I only have four more to set and brace. These will be the front overhang roof (upper and lower) posts.
To support the beams spanning the posts of the center aisle I will be using the Simpson hanger HUCQ610. I got a few of these up and mounted today.
I will be using 3 LVL's at 1 3/4 inch thick by 11 7/8 to span the center aisle posts. These hangers are pricing at $35.00 each.
I will be using 3 LVL's at 1 3/4 inch thick by 11 7/8 to span the center aisle posts. These hangers are pricing at $35.00 each.
sld
Veteran Member
Loads have to have a path out of any structure. A post standing by itself can only transfer loads into the attachment at the bottom. Not a good way. When you look at the entire structure hopefully loads will be transferred into strong joints that take advantage of the material and not necessarily the fasteners. All loads on a building need a strong path to the ground. That is why decking is so important. You do load these fasteners but there are bunch of them.
This is how my simple mind sees it anyway.
This is how my simple mind sees it anyway.
