starting out

[jimg]

Im in a situation where Id like to aquire an older tractor to work on and gain knowledge and experience but not necessarily do a bottom up restoration right now. The end goal is to have a mechanically safe/sound tractor to use in the local pulls. High HP isnt a requirement and whatever I wind up w/ needs to be a full size utility ag tractor. With that in mind are there brand/mdls that are easier to work on and well documented (mechanically vs historically)...more common than other tractors b/c of numbers made? Another primary consideration is a ready supply of parts. I have only limited shop resources at present so simple is best. I do know how to weld and am reasonably well inclined mechanically. It seems Farmall, International, Case and Oliver/MF are most common in this area. There are Deeres but I think many of those were moved to the area. After attending a few pulls it appears most of the contestants run late 50s-early 70s machines. So, Id like to stay generally in that age bracket. What would you suggest to get started?

 

[Farmwithjunk]

Unless you're rich uncle has turned over the keys to the bank vault, stay away from anything that isn't related to a current brand. (stick with Massey, Ford, Case IH, Deere, ect) Nothing that requires a scavenger hunt for every nut and bolt. That is "advance restoration territory".

I'd suggest starting with something late 1950's to mid 1970's as a 1st try. You can probably find a tractor that isn't a total basket case that way.

You mentioned an "ag utility" Nothing better in that realm than 1st and 2nd generation Massey Fergusons or "hundred series" and "thousand series" Fords. Deere and IH utilities will bust your uncles bank.

My personal favorite would be a 30/35/135 Ferguson/Massey Ferguson or an F-40/MF50/MF150. Easy to work on, cheap parts (that's relative to some other brands...NOTHING is cheap anymore)and eay to find a decent tractor.

The Fords I mentioned fall in the same catagory too.

These tractors were built in an era when farmers still used smaller tractors. They were built well enough to take a hard days work. Back then, most any farmer would do 90% of his own repair work. These tractors were designed to allow an average mechanic to understand how they worked.

There's a good supply of aftermarket parts available too. (EBAY!) Lots of manuals available, and lots of folks who can lend you all the advice you want.

 

[Soundguy]

Utility or ag size? And common?

I'd look for a ford 5000 or 5600.. or similar sized MF product.

Those are some pretty basic machines.. engine trans and rear end.. and just a tad bit of sheet metal .. no magic.. just big tough hp.

I don't doubt that a big casie/IH tractor would do you bad either.. though I'm more fond of fords... etc.

Soundguy

 

[BobG_in_VA]

If you're looking for something to "pull" with (I got the impression that that is your end game...), suggest you look at Allis Chalmers, maybe a WD or a WD45. Antique pulls allow up to '59 vintage tractors. ACs do very well at pulls (good weight distribution, and hard to beat, easy to work on engines). Parts are usually easy to come by. A second choice would be a Super C Farmall. Less HP but easy to work on and parts are everywhere. Mind you, both of these tractors usually are seen with a tri-cycle front, but both can also be had with wide front ends. You need to determine what type pulling you are gonna do/be eligible for, before you pick a brand/model. My 2 cents worth. BobG in VA

 

[Soundguy]

I agree with Bob.

Other issue on those wd are their price.... There were many ( too many? (grin ) ) of them made.. and they are priced accordingly. I'm sure you could find a good unit int he 2000$ range.. depending on where you are.

Soundguy

 

[Farmwithjunk]

Completely zoned out on the part about pulling.....

Skip th MF and Fords completely. Too heavy on the front end for a good puller without some serious weight reduction (and a fair amount of rule-bending)

You want a puller? Find yourself an old Minneapolis Moline. Next most common antique puller would be various FarmAlls, then Case. There have been a FEW successful pullers using MF and Ford, but they have years of experience and a touch of magic on their side.

2-cylinder Deeres do OK, but again, you have to know your stuff with them. (IF you have any aspirations of winning?)

Most antique pulling organizations have a cut-off around 1959 or earlier. Keeps the modern stuff outside looking in.

 

[slowrev]

Just went to a classic tractor pull. The 400 series Case tractors seemed to clean up.

 

[jimg]

Utility or ag size? And common?
What I was trying to communicate is that Im looking for a full size tractor as opposed to a CUT or one of the many number of small tractors (like Gibsons). By common I mean in numbers made. I figured parts should be much easier to find if many were mfg over a long period of time. That was just a guess on my part though and thats why I was asking here.

I'd look for a ford 5000 or 5600.. or similar sized MF product.
Right, I was thinking along the Ford line too. In this area Ford is very uncommon. At the last tractor show/pull there exactly 2 Fords out of 200-300 tractors. They just arent terribly popular for whatever reason. However, I wouldnt let that stop me.

Those are some pretty basic machines.. engine trans and rear end.. and just a tad bit of sheet metal .. no magic.. just big tough hp.
THis is what Im after...very simple but good pulling potential. I have been looking around at Fords since I posted my inquiry here and they can be had for reasonable $$$ in neighboring states.

I don't doubt that a big casie/IH tractor would do you bad either.. though I'm more fond of fords... etc.
These are very popular here and do well at the pulls.

Soundguy

Hi Soundguy

 

[jimg]

BobG
I should have been more specific about the rules. Here they say '60 and older are antique and '61 to '76 are classic. Within each class tractors are further divided by weight (including the driver). The antique class range from 3000# to 12,000# and classics 8000# to 16000#.

Many drivers here run WDs and do reasonably well. The big winners usually turn out to be the Olivers and Farmalls though. In this area from what I can tell both those brands are fairly pricey.

The Farmall Super C you mention would be the same as International Super C?

I know, I have a lot to learn!

 

[jimg]

Farmwithjunk,
The Olivers always do very well. In fact along w/ the Farmalls place most consistantly. From what I can tell though theyre more expensive and Im uncertain how mechanically complicated thay are.

 

[Soundguy]

Hi SoundguyWhat I was trying to communicate is that Im looking for a full size tractor as opposed to a CUT or one of the many number of small tractors (like Gibsons). By common I mean in numbers made. I figured parts should be much easier to find if many were mfg over a long period of time. That was just a guess on my part though and thats why I was asking here

What HP range are you looking for.

Weight will also be a consideration.. A turbocharged unit may be an option.. depending on if you have to run stock or not.

Soundguy

 

[Soundguy]

Which class are you wanting to pull in.. that will narrow down what machines are available.. ford 5000's are going to be classic.

If fords are not popular in your area.. you may be able to find one cheap.. 9 or not find one at all ).

Look around the pulls.. see what is the most poular brand.. and why.. compair it to what you are trying to buy.. etc.

Soundguy

BobG
I should have been more specific about the rules. Here they say '60 and older are antique and '61 to '76 are classic. Within each class tractors are further divided by weight (including the driver). The antique class range from 3000# to 12,000# and classics 8000# to 16000#.

Many drivers here run WDs and do reasonably well. The big winners usually turn out to be the Olivers and Farmalls though. In this area from what I can tell both those brands are fairly pricey.

The Farmall Super C you mention would be the same as International Super C?

I know, I have a lot to learn!

 

[BobG_in_VA]

BobG
I should have been more specific about the rules. Here they say '60 and older are antique and '61 to '76 are classic. Within each class tractors are further divided by weight (including the driver). The antique class range from 3000# to 12,000# and classics 8000# to 16000#.

Many drivers here run WDs and do reasonably well. The big winners usually turn out to be the Olivers and Farmalls though. In this area from what I can tell both those brands are fairly pricey.

The Farmall Super C you mention would be the same as International Super C?

I know, I have a lot to learn!

Olivers ARE good pullers, however around here you don't see them as often as the other "greens" and the Farmalls. Yes the Farmall Super C is an International, however the International name is used pretty much for the Utility tractors (wide front and smaller rear rim diameter), and the Farmall name is used for the tricycle AG tractors. Hope I made that somewhat clear...BobG in VA

 

[Farmwithjunk]

Farmwithjunk,
The Olivers always do very well. In fact along w/ the Farmalls place most consistantly. From what I can tell though theyre more expensive and Im uncertain how mechanically complicated thay are.

Oliver and Minneapolis Moline ended up under the same corperate umbrella at one point. They're both very good tractors for their time. They folded into White, which finally became part of AGCO.

A good friend is into tractor pulling "up to his ears". His "game" is to find a different brand or model of tractor every few years and try something outside the box. That's about the only way to gain an advantage when everyone does the same things to the same kind of tractors. He currently pulls an old Case "L".

 

[Soundguy]

Olivers ARE good pullers, however around here you don't see them as often as the other "greens" and the Farmalls. Yes the Farmall Super C is an International, however the International name is used pretty much for the Utility tractors (wide front and smaller rear rim diameter), and the Farmall name is used for the tricycle AG tractors. Hope I made that somewhat clear...BobG in VA

Olivers are scarce around here. I know of 2 for sale ( beaters that have been on a tractor yard back lot for 6+ years ).. I have seen (1) at an out of town show last year, and I say another a few miles from my house for sale years ago.. past those 4.. I've not seen any olivers at all. And the only MM I have seen are (2) at that same out of town show. Neither of those tractors.. or Allis chalmers are plentigull around here. I've seen 3 allis chalmers for sale in a tri county area .. one is a wd beater.. the other was a beater ( i refurbed it.. my 49' G ) and the other was a late model cut with loader... also a beater.

Around here ford is the most common, then NH , with JD next.. then kubota's, and then farmall/ih/case.

Soundguy

 

[Farmwithjunk]

I spent the afternoon with the friend of mine that's heavy in to pulling. We talked about how and with what a person should/could start out with. He's been involved in pulling for thebetter part of 30 years now, so I'd expect he's seen enough to form an educated opinion.

You need to target a class or classes that you feel comfortable with. Keep inmind you'll be hauling your tractor, weights, tools, "crew", and personal items (coolers, ect) You need to consider how big of a truck and trailer it'll take to get everything to and from the pulls. Most states (police) now consider pullers as commercial haulers. (Prize money.....Not MY opinion) CDL may be required.

My buddy mentioned 2 things that make for a good puller while we were talking today... CUBIC INCHES/CUBIC DOLLARS. Hmmmmm!

A tractor needs to be, when stripped of hang on weights, a few hundred pounds UNDER the minimum weight of the lightest class you're shooting for. That gives you some adjustment on where the weight is placed.

Most all the sactioning bodies around this part of the world have TIRE SIZE restrictions. RPM limits (based on stock rpm's) and some have speed limits. It's not ALWAYS about brute HP. Set-up is key.

Most all the sanctioning bodies nowday will have antiques in lighter classes, and the "classics" in heavyweight classes. Get a rule book for whatever group you plan on pulling with. Find out what they'll let you do as far as modifications.

For more advice, I'd suggest getting on Yesterdays Tractors and looking up a few of the regulars on the pulling forum. Maybe even find a puller in your area and see if they'll let you tag along with them at a pull or 2. (They welcome help "swinging weights". )

 

[jimg]

More data: I know this is going to sound loopy but what I get will be somewhat dependent by whether itll fit in a garage w/ std size roll up door. Right now (since I moved from NH) I live in an apt complex. I can rent a garage (from the complex) and thats the route Im going to take as this area is ram packed w/ thieves. I also dont want kids playing on it which would certainly happen if I parked it in the lot. (How can you blame them though? ) The garage will also second for my work shop so Im going to need a bit of space around the machine. These garages have a single 15 (20?) VAC outlet. Its much less than ideal but Im really tired of not having a tractor. Since I have no land to care for tractor pulling is an excellent excuse to own one again. That said Im not going to be here forever and would like to bring whatever I settle on w/ me. In that regard Id like a 3pt which would make the machine useful on a farm for light duties like mowing, pulling wagons, raking, tedding etc. Im not interested in using it for baling or mowing/conditioning nor does it need live hydraulics (but I wouldnt turn them down either). Sorry for being so fickle but Im trying to figure out exactly what Id like. Your questions got me thinking about the bigger picture. Thanx! So, given my better thought out requirements that should narrow the field substantially. I think 3 pt didnt become common until some time in the 50s??? BTW if the sheetmetal is good Ill be happy but if it isnt them thats not a problem. The mechanical systems are most important right now. I think sheetmetal is somewhat easy to repair, place, refurb.

If I understand the gist of the replies most any old tractor is going to be mechanically simple and parts availability is going to be the gating factor. Do I have that right? I just need to stick w/ a common brand and model.

Im rather predisposed to diesel and would rather not have a gas/propane motor. I think in general diesel is stronger, easier on fuel, makes more power and requires less PM. If theres something Im missing about gas motors Id be interested to hear your view in their favor.

Im not at all interested in exotic transmissions...SOS, TA or the like. I think theyre somewhat breakable arent they?

Im not real sure about turbos...I havent thought about that aspect before. Turbo technology is old enough so that anything Im liable to find in a tractor is going to be pretty bullet proof? I think theyre pricey to rebuild though arent they? Then theres the parts issue again if a rebuild is necessary...are they readily available?? I also think tractors big enough to have a turbo wont fit thru my garage door. So maybe thatll decide it for me.

Ive been looking around at used and it seems there are some at the lower end of the spectrum between 0-$3000. While Id like to keep it in that range I also dont want to buy a project thats going to cost $$$ to get working (or repair after it breaks). Im really not in the used tractor pricing loop and need to study that a bit. At any rate small/med repairs arent a problem but Id just as soon not have to do major repairs. Perhaps pricing is regional?? (eg At the w/e tractor show there was an old Case w/ rotten sheetmetal advertised to be good mechanically for $800. However most of the For Sale offerings were in the 2500-8000 range.)

Out here Case, MM, Oliver, MF, IH, AC and Farmall are most common. Deere is in there but not like the others mentioned. Ford has nearly no representation. At the pulls most of the winning is done by the Oliver, IH, Farmall crowd. The ACs do place sometimes though. While there are Deere entires they rarely, if ever, place. Before I moved W I had never seen a MM, AC or Case farm tractor. In the south were I grew up it was Deere, Ford/NH with some very small number of Olivers/MF. So, in that regard, this is quite the adventure and Im enjoying it!!

The Oliver Super 99s are amazing to watch!!! Most all are run w/ straight pipes and they ARE noisy. The S99 runs out of tire LONG before power. Once they can no longer progress horizontally they start going vertical (as in digging in). Id love to own one or a big IH/Farmall.

 

[jimg]

Farmswithjunk: Your friend sounds like hes in a totally different world than Id be operating in. The rules Id have to live under say all entries must be straight stock w/ VERY few exceptions. The drive train MUST be stock no exceptions. There is an exhibition class in which basically anything goes though. Im not interested in that one. Weights are used but I think its only to better distribute the tractors weight. I dont recall anyone using them to move from weight class to weight class. I did get the rules this past w/e and read thru them carefully and am pretty convinced that any stock tractor w/i the designated yrs will be OK.

Yes, I had considered what Id need to move my tractor and gear from home to the meet. Ill need to use my P/U and so what itll pull will help determine what I can buy. I figured my P/U will pull anything thatll fit thru my garage door.

As for tires I believe the rules say thay must be appropriate for the tractor. I believe what they after is not putting tires on the machine which couldnt be gotten from the factory. I should ask though.

There is a speed limit for all exc the exhibition classes and its 5mph. Exceeding that will cause you to be disqual'ed.

Thanx for the help!!! Im also planning to see what infos I can fnid at ytmag!!

 

[Farmwithjunk]

OK, sounds like you have the luxury of being in a pure stock class. That keeps cost down. Just don't believe for one second the usual winners are "pure stock". Tractor pulling is like oldtime stock car racing. It's not cheating if you don't get caught.

It's easier to tweek a few HP out of a diesel. It's hard to get a LOT more power from one unless you go way away from stock parts. Gassers are easier to get mega power from what appears stock. Diesels using stock injector pumps are somewhat limited. Gassers can use giant jets in the carbs, bigger cams, cut heads, tuned exhaust, ect.... That may be CHEATING, but it's commonly done. But let's get you off the starting line before we turn you in to a cheater, OK?

A thought occured to me while I was reading your last post. The venerable H FarmAll is a great old tractor. There's all sorts of tricks to making one pull like a team of Clydsdales. The International 300 Utility is ALMOST an H. It's a small utility, about the size of a Massey 135 or Ford 3000, and they were made before the 1960 cut-off, qualifying it in antique classes. You may even get lucky and find one with a T/A (Torque Amplifier)

I've got a 3000 Ford diesel, had a 3000 gasser, and still have my 150 Massey. I TRIED pulling the 3000 gasser and the 150 in our 4H fair pull a few times. Save your money.... They're good tractors for mowing hay, general farm chores and such, but they don't make very impressive pulling tractors.

If you're like most of us, you probably want to do halfway decent at the pulls for all your efforts. Might as well start with something that has potential.

And us TBNers want someone to cheer for too!

 

[jimg]

At this particular pull very few opt for a hotrod rig. Some of the contestants bring their everyday tractors and run them. Im pretty sure theyd do little or nothing to them as they depend on them day in/out. Im just as glad its that way b/c in my view its more fun and nearly anyone (like me) can jump in and play. Anyway, the mjority of these guys are farmers and probably couldnt (dont want to) afford the massive amts of $$$ needed for an other than stock tractor to use only a few times/yr.

As far as I know all of the pullers are honorable and feel they dont need to cheat to win. Ill go on that assumption until I find out otherwise.

BTW I want (like) to win too and am willing to find a good tractor and learn how to drive it. Ive never done anything like this before so itll be a big adventure for sure....and Ill learn a lot in the mean time.

As for the TA most of what Ive read about them isnt good (rather like Fords SOS). Unless someone can make an excellent case for an 'exotic' trasmission Im plann to stay away from them.