Starting Problems - 2008-09 Jinma 284 with Shuttle Shift

[MFO]

I recently purchased a Jinma 284. The person I bought it from purchased it new in 2010 and the tractor only has 31 hours. It has a claw bucket and backhoe attachment (not visible in my pic). It didn't work out for what he intended to use the it for and hasn't even started it for two years. I'm related to him so I am somewhat familiar with the tractor's history.

The last time it was started another relative that is an auto mechanic got it started by spraying starter spray into the air filter intake. He ran it then for quite a while, shut it off and there it has been sitting for two years with the exhaust covered with electrical tape. At this point it's 65-80 degrees, so it should be relatively easy to start. I've owned diesel cars and smaller tractors, have operated a large excavator and other big equipment occasionally, but am not an expert. I tried to start it to trailer it home last weekend, but am having trouble getting it started.

It has the shuttle shift option, so it doesn't have a decompression lever and I can't hand crank it - although it says in the manual that you can manually crank it. I have no idea how to do that and it doesn't show how in the manual. I replaced the battery and am jumping it from my 5.9 litre Jeep to make sure it has all the power it needs to crank. I made sure the fuel shutoff is in and the clutch is depressed, and that there is no blockage on the exhaust or intake. I checked the air filter and it's clean. The fuel tank was registering empty when I first tried to start it and I put a third of a tank of new fuel in it. The fuel in the glass cylinder below the tank looks clean. The petcock has been pointed straight down from the start, which appears to mean that it is open. At least it did with my old motorcycles, but there is no on or off reference on the petcock anywhere and the manuals don't even mention it.

When I try to start it I'm stopping at the glow plug setting for 10-40 seconds on various attempts, following the instructions with not cranking for too long or too often without a break. But all I get is a popping sound that could be normal, except I don't see any movement of the crankshaft or fan mechanism, and there is no apparent exhaust going out of the pipe. So it seems like it might be bound up, unless there would be no movement at this point under normal operating conditions until it cranks over. I was planning to make sure there isn't some sort of fuel issue or a vapor lock, but if it's not cranking that needs to be addressed first.

Any ideas on suggested next steps would be most appreciated...


Mark

 

[quicksandfarmer]

Just to clarify, the starter motor isn't turning? Just a popping noise?

Could be a defective starter. It could also be that something is keeping the engine from turning over.

First thing to check is the hydraulics. On these tractors there are quick-releases so you can take the front loader off. If they are disconnected the pressure on the pump will keep the engine from starting, they need to be either connected to a loader or to each other. Sometimes they will slip slightly to where they are attached but not connected.

You can turn the engine over manually using a 27mm socket on the crankshaft. It turns clockwise (i.e., set your wrench on tighten). It should take too much force to turn over, maybe 20-30 lbs. If it doesn't want to go don't force it, you can break something.

If it doesn't turn I would check if there is fluid in the cylinders. Could be fuel, oil, coolant or water (maybe the tape over the exhaust didn't work). If you don't have a compression release you can release compression by taking the glow plugs out.

If it still doesn't turn I would make sure an accessory isn't binding -- remove the starter, disconnect the hydraulic pump and loosen the generator drive belt. If it still doesn't turn after all that it's inside the engine.

If the starter motor is turning and the crankshaft isn't, that's a whole other situation.

 

[MFO]

@quicksandfarmer: The hydraulics have been problematic, especially on the backhoe, which is not attached currently. He also said that the main control for the clamshell loader had a leaking hydraulic connection. I was going to look at them after I got it started. So, if you're saying that the hydraulics can get in the way of it turning over, (because the starter motor is affected by the hydraulic malfunction?) I'll confirm that first.

I saw the 27mm crankshaft connection near the fan housing. No room to get my long torque wrench in there with the socket on it. I'll need to get a long 27mm wrench to turn that.

I was assuming that the starter motor is turning and the crankshaft is not, since it's a loud rapid pop, pop pop like it is attempting to turn. But since I have never heard the starting sounds myself, I don't know what to make of that sound.

 

[quicksandfarmer]

@quicksandfarmer: The hydraulics have been problematic, especially on the backhoe, which is not attached currently. He also said that the main control for the clamshell loader had a leaking hydraulic connection. I was going to look at them after I got it started. So, if you're saying that the hydraulics can get in the way of it turning over, (because the starter motor is affected by the hydraulic malfunction?) I'll confirm that first.

To clarify: the hydraulic pump is a constant volume pump, where it moves a constant volume of fluid for each rotation of the shaft. If the output is blocked, the pump can't move fluid and the pump shaft can't move. When that happens, there are three possible outcomes: either the engine stalls (because the pump shaft is direct drive); a seal fails on the pump and the fluid can escape; or the pump shaft fails. On my tractor, when it happens the starter motor doesn't have enough torque to break anything and the starter stalls, which is fortunate because the other two outcomes mean replacing the parts that failed.

The most common cause of blocking the output on the hydraulic pump is disconnecting the quick-connects and leaving them disconnected. The quick-connects are the type that are closed when they aren't connected to anything. The output from the pump goes directly to a quick-connect, there is no relief or anything inline with it. The quick-connects should always be connected to each other or to the loader valve, the tractor won't run if they're not connected.

 

[jimmysisson]

Quicksand, how do you get the 20-30 ft. lbs. number? Seems like w 18:1 compression it'd be more than that.
Also, OP, the description pop-pop, is that you turning the key twice or the starter noise when you turn the key to start and hold it. Pop doesn't sound right to me...
Jim

 

[jimjumper]

As a quick comment, on my Yanmar, the fuel petcock is open when the lever is pointed up.

 

[quicksandfarmer]

Quicksand, how do you get the 20-30 ft. lbs. number? Seems like w 18:1 compression it'd be more than that.
Also, OP, the description pop-pop, is that you turning the key twice or the starter noise when you turn the key to start and hold it. Pop doesn't sound right to me...
Jim

I use this tool:

TORK-GRIP, The Ultimate Torque Wrench For The Bicyclist

No, it's just an estimate. When I turn the engine over I'm not pulling with all my might or putting my full weight into it. It's one hand on the wrench and not breaking a sweat. I guess my point was that if you have to pull as hard as you can there's something wrong and you're probably going to break something.

 

[MFO]

@Jimmysisson The compression is even a little higher than that. The Jinma 284 has a Y385 motor, which has a 22:1 compression ratio. And since it also has the Shuttle Shift option, there is a "delete" of the Decompression Lever feature. So the only way to decompress would be as @quicksandfarmer suggested, to loosen or pull the glow plugs.

On your other question on the popping - after I have paused for 10-45 seconds on the glow plug setting during the start, and then move to the actual start position all the way to the right, that is when the popping starts. Since I have never heard what a Jinma 284en it is starting, I don't know if that is normal. A high compression diesel is noisy, so I'm not ruling out that the sound could be normal. I just know that the crankshaft is not moving the fan and alternator when the popping noise is happening.

@Jimjumper: The petcock on mine has two positions - down (which I assume is on) and horizontal to the ground. It is under the fuel tank so down would be consistent with a plumbing valve indicating open and closed, parallel and perpendicular to the pipe it is controlling, respectively.

 

[DieselBound]

Popping -> just the solenoid kicking in? Could be that the starter's armature is rusted to the case. This maps to "no crankshaft movement."

Once you get the starter freed up then continue...

Drain the fuel out of everywhere you can think of. Replace any/all fuel filters. Get some PowerService 911 and add some of that to fresh fuel. Actually, if you can, just get some fresh fuel and stuff the fuel pickup line coming from the tank to the fuel filter) into it, this way you completely bypass any weird stuff that might be happening in your fuel tank.

DO NOT use starting fluid on a diesel unless, and this is a very BIG "unless," you disable your glowplugs. Failure to abide by this could result in a trip to the repair shop (big $$) and or a trip to the hospital (or, worse, morgue).

I'd also look to change other fluids. Sitting this long can introduce lots of moisture (engine oil and the engine itself is a bit more tolerable, though this oil, and filter, should be changed as well).

 

[MFO]

@DieselBound: I initially noted the use of starter fluid because I was wondering if that could have damaged something. But I've been working on getting it running off and on since I first wrote this post and it's finally running well.

It's hard to say exactly what was the original problem, but a marginal battery (and two other marginal batteries) were part of the problem. They weren't dead and I had a charger with a 225 amp starter position, so I was assuming that had nothing to do with it, initially. I went through the fuel system, replaced all the fuel and bled the system to get out all the air to make sure fuel was making it to the intake. There was some air in the system. I removed and reinstalled the starter and made sure all the connections were good, with the battery out of my truck in it I got it to start and run for an hour, during which time I swapped batteries to get the battery I though only needed charging charged.

Then it wouldn't restart. So after I got a new battery, and lubricated a fuel shutoff that was sticking in shutoff position, it fires up as a (now) 33 hour 284 should. (!)

Thanks for all your help! Now, if I can only get the backhoe hydraulics operating - but that may be an issue that's been addressed in another post...