Steep property--need advice.

NY_Yankees_Fan · Apr 24, 2005

( On top of that, I am still looking at the 3 sites Bob sent, but having trouble finding dealer locations on some of them. )

Craig,

Power Trac does not have a dealer network you buy direct from the manufacture. If you are handy and do not mind turning a wrench they are a great option. I wish I found about Power Trac before I got my BX. I would have most likely gotten a Power Trac, they are truly an amazing machine that can do a lot of things, kinda like the Swiss arm knife of tractors. The Power Trac board below has a great bunch of folks and will help you with any questions . Here is a link to a list of Power Trac owners by state you may want to contact to get more info, test drive.

web page

Georgia

425 JOL1269
180 DTURNMIRE

One of the TBN member's Moss Road, has a PT and put together a great web site with videos of his PT in action, check it out.

web page

Good luck in your search and remember half the fun is just looking and trying out the equipment.

Bob_Skurka · Apr 24, 2005

Bob,
This wasn't something that was directed at you. It has been a reoccurring thing for some time from more than one person. That was why I had the question.


Yup, I know it wasn't directly, but I was one of those who mentioned it.

As for your desire to want to disengage the transmission, that can be done on the HST by pushing in the clutch. But as tractors have 4 wheel drive and braks on only the rear wheels, wouldn't that leave you in a position with control over only 2 wheels and 2 wheels free spinning?

No, I'd rather have the HST simply because I feel much more in control on slopes and feel I have less chance of sliding in the first place.

JerryG · Apr 24, 2005

But as tractors have 4 wheel drive and braks on only the rear wheels, wouldn't that leave you in a position with control over only 2 wheels and 2 wheels free spinning? 
The way the drive train is laid out on the CUTs, you effectively have 4 wheel brakes when in 4 wheel drive. Do you have any really steep places on your property?
 No, I'd rather have the HST simply because I feel much more in control on slopes and feel I have less chance of sliding in the first place.
I'll leave that one a lone this morning... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Henro · Apr 24, 2005

This statement by Henro, and the one by New_York_Yankees_Fan, while generally true, are not completely valid. 

John, you are right in the strict sense. Posts on how the HST "Stops" when one's foot is lifted off the directional pedal in many cases are a slight stretch of what really may happen. My experience is like yours...the tractor may not stop completely, but it will slow to a very slow snails pace, giving one time to consider what his next move should be.

In my case, what I will often do is just apply slight pressure to the opposite directional pedal and the tractor will stop and hold position. If I am going to be there more than a moment, I will set the brake rather than hold position with the HST pedal.

As you know, if the HST is in gear with the engine running, and the brakes are set, there are two things that tend to hold the tractor in position. IF the brakes would release for some strange reason (piece of vine stuck in the latch mechanism, catches in your shoe lace as you get off the tractor, pulls the latch...brakes release...stranger things have happened) the HST will tend to hold the tractor in position, but as you say, it may start to drift slowly down the slope. (Hopefully we will have remembered to drop all implements to the ground before getting off the tractor...)

With the engine OFF though, I think the gear tractor would be better if parked on a slope. I have tested my HST with the engine off, and it will roll if I release the brakes on a steep slope (20 degrees) while I expect a gear tractor left in the lowest gear would hold position (speculation on my part).

I know someone who is familiar with tractors might already know all these things and more. The only reason I am stating the obvious, so to speak, is for those who may be reading this thread who are new to tractors (not to imply that I'm not...).

Henro · Apr 24, 2005

Weight does NOT equal stability on hills. Proper balance of the machine will give greater stabiltiy than sheer weight. Lower center of gravity will increase stability, but a narrow tractor with a low COG is going to tip, now matter how heavy it is. 

Bob,

Did you really mean to say the part of the quote emphasized?

Had you said "high COG" the logic would have been consistant in that paragraph start to finish.

Like you I have read posts where it looks like some people equate total tractor weight with stability. And like you I realize that it is not the weight, but the balance, or where the weight is placed that affects stability of the tractor. Because all things being equal, the lower the center of gravity, the greater the tractor's stability on a slope.

So a flag started waving in my mind when you said a narrow tractor with a low COG is going to tip, regardless of weight. Simply because a narrow tractor with a low center of gravity will be more stable than a similar narrow tractor with a higher center of gravity.

One thing I'm not sure I've ever seen mentioned is the possibility that weight added to lower a tractor's COG might also cause it to sink into soft spots (on the low side when crossing a slope) which would in effect increase the side angle of the tractor and work to counter some of the stabilizing effect that COG-lowering weight added to the tractor provides.

I don't mean to sound like I disagree with your post. I do agree, and think it is especially meaningful to state that "Weight does NOT equal stability on hills."

For me it all boils down to height of the COG and width of the tractor's tires. The lower the COG and the wider the tires, the better.

I like the points you made about the articulated tractors. I think the articulation is actually a bit of liabiliity if turing on a slope, because the COG tends to shift towards the down hill side (for 90 degrees of a 180 degree turn). But the ascillating feature sure sounds like it is a great advantage, one that I would like to have.

2nstonge · Apr 24, 2005

ctadds,

Welcome to the board, lots of good opinionated opinions in response to your questions - now let me add mine.

I've been tractoring for only 2 years. Relatively speaking, in comparison to many posters here, I readily admit that I'm new and inexperienced - less than 200 hours seat time in total. Up until this spring I was typical of most homeowners on TBN; an hour or two during the week to cut the lawn and maybe a few hours more on Saturday to do a project. A couple of weeks ago I started doing some tractor work for hire; tilling, box blading...small stuff for local customers. I've had more seat time in the past 2 weeks than I've had in the past 6 months! But still, I'm green, and understanding the idiosyncracies of the tractor, the attachments, your own learning curve and expectations and how they all interact is time consuming & really only achievable with seat time - lots of it.

When I, as an 'inexperienced operator', am on a ungroomed slope, this is what I'm doing besides just 'driving'; watching the ground immediately in front of me for rocks, roots, gopher holes...anything that will upset the apple cart; watching the ground 20ft in front of me so that I can slowly alter my course to avoid bigger obstacles; I'm looking over my shoulder to monitor the implement behind me and change it's height, speed or whatever to address the things I'm seeing in front of me; and, I'm also watching and adjusting the FEL - low enough to maintain a good, low center of gravity but high enough to not catch any obstacles. Not to mention dealing with the pucker factor I've posted on the Owning/Operating board.

So, there's a few things going on at once that require my full attention for long periods - do I want to also deal with a clutch and shifting? Obsolutely not. But that's me. It can be frustrating - not to mention dangerous - for us new guys to accomplish what we set out to do with these toys, er, tools. Unless you're thinking of quitting the dentistry profession to devote a ton of hours to tractoring YOUR intuitive 'feel' of the tractor and controls - particularly on sloped terrain - is critical. Every brand is different in this respect, try as many as you can.

So, my 2 cents; 4WD, HST, low center of gravity, seat time, demo's on similar property/terrain if possible (my JD dealer let me use the x585 for 2 weeks on my property and then the 4110 for almost a month when I wanted to trade-up before signing on bottom line).

Good luck with your choices.

-Norm

Bob_Skurka · Apr 24, 2005

Henro . . . IT WAS LATE, I WAS TIRED, consequently I was speaking in incomplete phrases.

A narrow tractor with a low COG will tip easier than a wide tractor with a low COG is really what I was trying to say because I was trying to compare a traditional CUT to something like a PT. And even that, is a bad description because the actual widths of the machines are roughly the same.

So let me try again. A traditional CUT like a JD790 has a typical COG for a tractor of that size. Now compared to a PT of similar capabilities, the PT has a much lower COG.

The reality is the wider the wheels and the lower the COG the better, and absolute weight, at that point becomes a totally irrelevant issue.

But the reality also is that there is no brand of traditional CUT that I am aware of, either ultra light or heavy, that has wide wheels and a low Center Of Gravity.



Perhaps I should have written that a narrow tractor, like all of the traditional CUTs in the size range being considered by the original poster (roughly 48" to 54" wide), is going to tip, no matter how heavy it is.



Henro wrote: I like the points you made about the articulated tractors. I think the articulation is actually a bit of liabiliity if turing on a slope, because the COG tends to shift towards the down hill side (for 90 degrees of a 180 degree turn). But the ascillating feature sure sounds like it is a great advantage, one that I would like to have 

The other advantage offered by Steiner, Ventrac & PT (some models only) is that there is a "weight transfer" system that increases traction on the slopes by shifting weight onto onto the wheels.

tracdoc · Apr 24, 2005

( I like the points you made about the articulated tractors. I think the articulation is actually a bit of liabiliity if turing on a slope, because the COG tends to shift towards the down hill side (for 90 degrees of a 180 degree turn). )

So true, Henro. I am still on the learning curve on this "phenomenon" with my PT. If I find my "pucker factor" increasing while crossing what seems initially to be a slight grade, I have to think counter-intuitively and head down the slope, rather than try to scramble up to safety. Turning up the slope makes the CG do exactly what you note, which, in turn, aggravates the pucker factor, instead of relieving it.

A learning process, indeed...

ctadds · Apr 24, 2005

"Perhaps I should have written that a narrow tractor, like all of the traditional CUTs in the size range being considered by the original poster (roughly 48" to 54" wide), is going to tip, no matter how heavy it is."

OK--first off, I am taking a much harder look at the PT's, but in the meantime, I have a theoretical question: Based on the above statement, would it not make more sense to go with a lighter machine, and ballast the heck out of it, on the premise that the ballast will lower the center of gravity overall--another consideration--the heavier the machine, the easier it is for it to loose grip and start sliding down the hill. It kind of reminds me of the "envelope" that test pilots talk about--everything is a trade-off, and where do you draw the line??

Again, I am learning a lot here, I have re-read the thread 3 times, just to make sure I am getting it all; thanks to all.
Craig

Henro · Apr 24, 2005

I have a theoretical question... 

Looking at Bob's statement, one thing that may not be immediately apparent is that there are CUTS and SUBCUTS. I have one of both, and Bob does too if you consider his Ventrac (hope I spelled that rigth) a subcut.

My B2910 Kubota is a CUT. It is 53" wide. I fear turning it sideways on a 20 degree slope (not percent, degrees) even though with its loaded tires, front and back, my mind tells me it should handle 20 degrees easily. It feels real scary at 20 degrees. I just don't do it.

My BX2200 is mabye 40" wide. It also has loaded tires, foam in the fronts and liquid in the rears. With the 60" mmm on it, I turn circles on the 20 degree slopes...and feel comfortable doing it.

Why? Because the subcut is lower to the ground to begin with, and the MMM weighs about 270 lbs and is the suspended type, hanging from the tractor, very low to the ground. This results in a much lower COG relative to tractor width. It both feels safer and is I believe safer.

I don't think it is fair to say without qualification that any tractor is going to tip over though. It is possible to put a tractor or other vehicle on a tilt table and actually measure static tip angle...but that is a best case situation....so even if a tractor was measured to NOT tip over at 40 degrees on the table, we all know that it might tip over at much less of an angle, or even on a flat surface if it were equipped with a loader, and the operator had a full bucket at full lift, and was moving at a fair speed and did a quick turn...

I think the bottom line is that if one wants stability, he wants the widest possible tire tread and the most weight as low as possible. This could be by design of the tractor, or with weight added later, to lower the center of gravity as much as possible.

The ability to shift weight to the high side that Bob mentioned would be a great addition as well, but that seems like it is something that would be harder to add by the end user.

Where to draw the line is a difficult question. Few of us actually have experience with turning our tractors on their sides, or worse. We know how worrysome a slope feels...but we don't know how close we are (for the most part) to actually tipping the tractor over. I have been in a position where the tractor was sitting on an angle, with the high side front wheel off the ground. It did not feel very good...I actually stopped and got off the tractor and decided what the next step should be.

But the tractor was happy to sit there in that position, and I got out of it without any problem, except for an uncomfortable feeling during the process. Point being that even though a situation FEELS like it is precarious, it might be more of a feeling than fact.

I've concluded pretty much that until I roll my tractors seveal times (like I used to crash my bicyles and motorcycles when I was young) I really will not know their actuall limits. I've also concluded at this point in my life I will NOT roll my tractors, so I will likely never know their actual limits!

I can live with that! Which may be a very literal statement, to say the least... /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif