Step by step photos of new garage

[patrick_g]

Says the man with the HUGE heated shop/garage

Huge being defined in this case as 24x36 less a 12 x6 intrusion from the garage. Soon (within a year) I hope to convert the 21x48 tractor shed to enclosed storage and metal working shop and then I will be getting closer to huge. Uh, this is neglecting my other shop bld which is 35x70 plus a 10x12 wart (office) on the front. I don't heat the 35x70 and just use it for a parking and storage facility so although larger it is not really used as a shop so is excluded from the huge shop listing.

About HUGE... Gemini has a truly cavernous new garage/shop, a generous 4 bay unit that dwarfs his family sedan and Boxter.

Pat

 

[roermo]

Lynkage: Do you know the btu of your heating / Ac/ or any one else us a combo like that. Have to keep my tractor seat warm in the winter and cool in the summer, or it might be I get kicked out of the house a lot.

Roger

 

[gemini5362]

Lynkage: Do you know the btu of your heating / Ac/ or any one else us a combo like that. Have to keep my tractor seat warm in the winter and cool in the summer, or it might be I get kicked out of the house a lot.

Roger

Roger I am not sure if the unit he is talking about is a heat pump unit or just an airconditioner with electric heating strips. I believe you can buy those. I do know that you can get a heat pump that goes into your window or wall. They have electric strips for emergency heat. Lowes sells them and I think on the box they tell you the amount of cubic feet that the unit will condition.

 

[patrick_g]

Roger I am not sure if the unit he is talking about is a heat pump unit or just an airconditioner with electric heating strips. I believe you can buy those. I do know that you can get a heat pump that goes into your window or wall. They have electric strips for emergency heat. Lowes sells them and I think on the box they tell you the amount of cubic feet that the unit will condition.

Roger, If you need much heat, don't rely on heat strips in an A/C unit. Heat strips are 100% efficient at converting electrical energy to heat but that doesn't make the heat cheap unless the electricity is cheap.

If the outside temp goes much below 40F for very long while you need heat then a heatpump isn't all that good either and if equipped will revert to pure electric heat via the strips, at greater cost till conditions allow it to go back into heatpump mode. At temps around 40F and above a heat pump will provide 3-4 times as much heat per kilowatt as electric strips or an electric heater. This 3-4 times figure makes it economical and reasonable in many instances to justify the extra cost of the heat pump since it will pay for itself out of energy savings in just a few years in many instances.

It is often more cost effective to spend more up front and get a higher SEER rated unit as the higher efficiency will reduce your electric bill and again this will more than pay for the extra up front cost within a few years.

The last time I did this it was an upgrade from AC with heater strips to a high SEER heat pump. Savings in electricity paid for both upgrades in less than 3 years and then it was just $ in the bank.

There have been significant improvements in available refrigerants and heatpump internal designs since the above example happened and going with a high SEER heatpump now is even a better deal than when I specked it for my moms house.

Readers Digest version: A high SEER heat pump will cost more to buy but will save so much in operating costs as to pay back the difference quickly and then just save you considerable money in reduced electrical charges.

An AC unit with heat strips (not a reversible heat pump) will cost more overall to buy and operate for a few years than the more expensive heat pump with internal back up heat strips even though initial cost will be less

A high SEER heat pump is a pay me now option. The cheap AC with heat strips is a pay me later but pay me lots more overall option.

You can't just calculate the cuft of the room and buy a heat pump to match. It isn't nearly that easy if you want to be assured of a good solution. Window U values, ceiling floor and wall R values, infiltration, insolation (sunlight, insOlation not insUlation), and such need to be considered. there are sites on the internet by the DOE to help you size your equipment, plug in the values and get the answer in BtU's

Pat

Pat

 

[Bird]

Lynkage: Do you know the btu of your heating / Ac/ or any one else us a combo like that. Have to keep my tractor seat warm in the winter and cool in the summer, or it might be I get kicked out of the house a lot.

Roger

I haven't gone back and read all this thread, but I see Lynkage was talking about a wood working shop close to the size of mine. Mine is 21' x 25' interior, well insulated, double door at one end, single door at the other end and one window on each side. The windows are the kind that slide open sideways instead of up and down. I removed just the movable part of one window and installed a Whirlpool model ACE124XR window unit air-conditioner with the heat strip; 230 volt, 3-speed cooling fan, 2-speed heating fan, 11,400 BTU cooling and 11,700 BTU heating capacity. It's only a 9.8 EER; not too energy efficient, I guess, but it's been more than adequate in extreme weather (we spend more time shooting pool and partying out there than working). And I did get it from Lowe's on 9/25/05 for $478 plus $39.44 sales tax.

The house itself has a 1999 Rheem heat pump and so far we've been very happy with it. I'm not sure if or when the auxilliary heat strip has ever kicked on in normal operation, but I have turned it on, on purpose, twice to see that it was working, and whew! will it get hot in a hurry!

One of my brothers, living in a 5th wheel travel trailer, has the roof mounted RV air-conditioner that is a heat pump, but then the trailer also has a propane furnace if needed. So I'm pretty sure you can buy window unit heat pumps.

 

[patrick_g]

I'm pretty sure you can buy window unit heat pumps.

Oh, absolutely and finding one with a considerably higher SEER rating than yours will be easy since the Government mandate requires it.

"After nearly a decade with 10 SEER (Seasonal Energy Efficiency Ratio) as the minimum efficiency, January 23, 2006 marks the mandated increase to 13 SEER."

I bought a 19 SEER unit a few years ago and you can get 22 or better now. Even the cheapies at the big box stores have to equal or exceed the Federally mandated minimum.

Department of Energy - Homepage has all the poop.

Pat

 

[gemini5362]

I have a friend that installs heat pumps. He installed my new one last summer and got me one of the last 12.5 units they had in stock. I was suprised at that but the reasoning had to do with the way they get the higher seer values. The electronics on them are pretty complicated. If something goes wrong after the warranty is out then the higher seer units are expensive to repair. He also talked about the two speed compressors. Basically one unit runs at half the speed of the other one and it runs twice as long. His opinion is that you dont save that much money by doing that. When you consider the cost of the equipment. How much difference I would pay with more efficency and my age I probably could not get my money back out of putting in a high efficiency unit in my area.

 

[patrick_g]

Thomas, I'm sure I could have an interesting conversation with your friend.

Some of the gains in SEER were made in refrigerant and it isn't prone to failure or need repair. Running a compressor slower but longer is less taxing on the equipment and since it dehumidifies better at the end of the day you have had the same comfort with less electricity used, often by a significant amount if there is significant humidity. I think wear in rotating equipment tends to be proportional to the square of the RPM so running half speed reduces wear to 1/4 so doubling the run time still is at 1/2 the wear of full speed.

Comfort with less energy consumption is a good thing. This has nothing to do with fancy electronics and is true with the old fashioned refrigerants in old fashioned compressors.

Sure, to extract the last little bit of SEER value requires more complication in the electronics. You do things like run the air handler after the compressor shuts off so you get the last of the cool you paid for into the conditioned space.

I have heard a lot of these arguments from installers who find the electronic controls too complicated for their skill level. What next, starting motors in cars instead of the old reliable trouble free hand cranks?

I don't know your bud and he may be the best there is but is not necessarily in the majority. I'm not placing him in the following described group but unfortunately the majority of residential A/C installations in the US are NOT PROPERLY SIZED because the seller/installer doesn't actually know how to RIGHT SIZE the equipment so the trend is to oversize it to be sure it will get the job done and reduce callbacks. That plus the bigger the unit the more $ for the seller.

Unfortunately, oversized units cost more to operate and maintain. They short cycle which increases maintenance requirements and can lead to premature failure. They also do not dehumidify as well as right sized units (especially multi or variable speed units or dual compressor units) so since the air isn't dehumidified properly you have to cool the air more to be comfortable and the greater delta T inside to out costs more to maintain by even more short cycling run time.

The efficiency of a given unit goes up from startup through the first 30-45 min (typically) and then gives the most colling per unit runtime. If the unit is oversized, as over 50% of residential retrofit units are, then it spend much more of its run time in short cycling and thus spends the majority of its time in the startup portion of the efficiency curve and because of that costs more to run even if in theory it is a high SEER unit.

Its just me I suppose but the idea of buying a model T to avoid clean air controls is not particularly appealing.

Funny thing we should discuss anything regarding HVAC repairs. I had a repair guy out yesterday. To my chagrin the problem was the forced draft blower motor had a sticky shaft and all those complicated electronics prevented the burner from starting (a good thing). The tech figured it out fairly quickly and got it going B U T dislodged the flue pipe and he was too large in stature to reach it in the attic and put it back together so they are sending out a little skinny guy (tunnel rat) Monday (probably) to put the exhaust pipe back together. The tech is about 6ft 4-5 inches and about 260lbs. Luckily the down unit services two shops and a sun porch which has a propane heater of its own anyway. I can always work hard in the shop and stay warm, maybe.

Readers digest version: If you are going to install an AC or heatpump and want to save $ overall not just in initial purchase price, you need to do or get someone to do some engineering calcs to allow "right sizing" the equipment.

I gotta go put on my Nomex long handles before any hot replies register.

Pat

 

[Lynkage]

Lynkage: Do you know the btu of your heating / Ac/ or any one else us a combo like that. Have to keep my tractor seat warm in the winter and cool in the summer, or it might be I get kicked out of the house a lot.

Roger

I am using a 11,000 BTU window mount. It was cheaper than a through the wall unit.
But you can also put an elec heat pump unit for a house on the wall or in the ceiling and you do not have to put ducts and it will work just fine.

 

[roermo]

Thanks guys as all ways information is bountiful here and is very help. I was wondering now about another subject. Somewhat related to heating and condensation. When talking about humidity from the heating unit and harming items in the garage what about all the water that drips from the truck. This occurs after driving the city streets. I had enough that I swept it out. Will this effect items in the garage.

2nd what about the bottom of the door will it get wet and harmed from the water. I swept the water to the door and out. But it is still damp. I have a rubber sweep or strip along the bottom but will it over time harm the door. It is aluminum panels and the brackets are of some other type of metal.

Food for thought on this snowy Sat night here in Missouri, 7 inches and counting. My tractor is so happy.

Roger