Storm tracker thread

[Sigarms]

In other words.. kayaks are EXCELENT rescue boats.

I use to be a video boater in WV and NY, and the side title was "safety boater" on the trips, so in case someone fell out of a raft, it was my responsibility to try and help someone from my kayak if possible.

Trying to save someone in fast moving water in a kayak is a lot like playing lifeguard swimming up to someone who was drowning in water over your head... generally you don't unless you want to kill yourself in the process with the person you are trying to save.

That said, my largest kayak was my first, a Perception dancer that was probably about 10' long that was a monster compared to some of my play boats.

 

[MossRoad]

Actually.. this is a perfect place for a kayak.. not a canoe.. but a kayak. You can launch a kayak basically anywhere water meets land.. most models float even when waterlogged.. meaning a tipped 'full' kayak still provides rescue boyancy. I have 4 kayaks and a paddle board. set on, set in, 8-11' feet, etc. every one of them will float 100% full of water, the set on top kayak and paddle board are impossible to sink without tripple loading them, and then they pop back up once unloaded. I tested a 275# rated kayak , set inside, at double weight and it still was keeping the operator opening above water. that's with an operator, gear, and 2 people hanging onto the boat, one fore, one aft.

In other words.. kayaks are EXCELENT rescue boats. some of them can navigate in as low as 4" of water, and many are ocean rated. If I can be fully loaded with water and emergency supplies, and still pickup 2 waterbound people, on a plastic craft that I can carry on my shoulder and launch from a roadside ditch.. that's just superb.

My buddies and I kayak about once a week on average.

A kayak in moving water with an inexperienced paddler is death waiting to happen.

 

[Sigarms]

A kayak in moving water with an inexperienced paddler is death waiting to happen.

Nah, happens ALL the time.

Where death is waiting to happen with an inexperienced paddler (who can't swim) is when you have undercut rocks, strainers, low head dams, and enough water flow to create a flush drowning.

First time snow boarding.... fall down, brush yourself off, keep going down hill. Time to recover from mistake, about 1-5 minutes depending on how hard the snow is.

First time kayaking.... go upside down, can't roll, swim.... THEN you have to get YOU, your boat AND your paddle to shore. Time to recover from mistake, about a pain in the arse if your taking the newbie down and you've got to help him collect everything LOL

 

[Soundguy]

Sorry.. Yall must be terrible swimmers and very unpracticed kayakers...

I've been in water , swimming, before I was walking.

When my group got into kayaking we took nearly a year to practice safety exercises. That involves getting into the kayak after an upset in moving, still and deep waters. Yep, no shore in site, get in or stay wet type drills.

We also did drills using kayaks and paddleboards to rescue with. All someone has to do is literally hang on the front and straddle the underside of the keel, or hold onto the back and just trail/float.this works with an 8' kayak and 2 240 people in the water, and 185# of operator and gear in the kayak. Btdt many times.

Plenty of smart things to do, I use a seat and back cushion that are actually 'throwable' type 4 personal flotation devices. Most of use wear a 2 or 3. No type 1 neck strainers or type 5 , conscious activation units.

My set on top kayak is nearly 12', ocean rated, has a good keel, will self right and self drain. I can exit and enter that yak without upsetting it. Me and a partner can change places, me from the yak to her padfleboard and her from the pb to my yak with -0- issues, and no one goes overboard. We do class 3 and class 4 rapids a few times a year. We rarely do anything in still waters anymore, except perhaps at a launch basin before hitting a river.

All it takes is practice, and all of us have grey or no hair...

Trying to compare a non swimmer who is a first time paddler, in an unfamiliar boat in unfamiliar water that is class 3 or higher vs an experienced paddler that is a good swimmer and experienced with fast waters and hazards, hydraulics, etc, especially with practiced egress and assisting others is not a very fair comparison...

 

[Sigarms]

Trying to compare a non swimmer who is a first time paddler, in an unfamiliar boat in unfamiliar water that is class 3 or higher vs an experienced paddler that is a good swimmer and experienced with fast waters and hazards, hydraulics, etc, especially with practiced egress and assisting others is not a very fair comparison...

On my "resume" I've done the upper Gauley at well over 10,000 CFS and the Lochsa at well over 25,000, just remember the Ottawa being big and a host of flooded rivers and irish railroad on the northfork was pretty big too LOL (only regret when being younger was not going with some friends to do the Zambezi). Used to consider myself pretty familiar with "big" water. I'll stick with my assertion that in fast moving water, in a kayak, you're very susceptible to putting yourself into danger if you get you and your boat next to someone in serious "distress". That said, as noted, the largest boat I've owned was a 10' dancer, and none were a sit on top. When it came to water, I use to have a pretty big slonger lol.

I had "rescued" some people on some trips from my kayak, but in general, I was basically "bird dogging" them going down the rapids as I would never have someone hanging off my boat in fast moving water (goal was not to lose sight of them). I generally stopeed with them in eddies when possible ONLY when they could be reasoned with (freaked out people don't reason very well). Getting a freaked out person on your kayak is no different than trying to safe a freaked out swimmer. Heck, I remember a buddy almost having to club someone with his paddle to get them off his boat LOL

 

[Soundguy]

The key is to approach a person in distress head on, only present the keel to grab, not a side. Better yet, as you approach, toss them a type 4 flotation device. That alone should stabilize them, once they are calm, they can hitch a ride.

 

[MossRoad]

Having been a certified water safety instructor, a lifeguard on a man-made whitewater course, and going through swift water rescue school, I stand by my remarks about inexperienced paddlers, moving water, and kayaks.

Been there. Done that. Seen it many times. Pulled out hundreds of people that got in over their head. They have a great look on their face when they're pinned on a log or rock and the water keeps pushing their face underwater over and over and over again. It's that, how do you describe it, oh yeah.... it's that "I'm gonna die" look. Moving water is serious business. Most people just don't understand the forces behind it.

 

[MossRoad]

The key is to approach a person in distress head on, only present the keel to grab, not a side. Better yet, as you approach, toss them a type 4 flotation device. That alone should stabilize them, once they are calm, they can hitch a ride.

We're talking about swift moving water here. How are you going to approach a person in distress (like pinned on a log or tree) head on in a swift moving current with your keel? And it's a rare person that has a spare flotation device on their kayak.

 

[Sigarms]

Been there. Done that. Seen it many times. Pulled out hundreds of people that got in over their head. They have a great look on their face when they're pinned on a log or rock and the water keeps pushing their face underwater over and over and over again. It's that, how do you describe it, oh yeah.... it's that "I'm gonna die" look. Moving water is serious business. Most people just don't understand the forces behind it.

Moss, you got to start somewhere...

Granted, a flooded river aint the place, but...

 

[MossRoad]

Yeah, you got to start somewhere. Like a shallow lake with a couple experienced people to show you how.

We have a river in town. It's deceivingly dangerous. It looks flat, and appears slow. But it's current is about 6-8mph, and it changes width rapidly. So you're paddling along in a 200' wide section at 5mph, and you round a bend that narrows to 100' and now the current is instantly 10mph, a bridge with three spans is in front of you, and each bridge abutment is 15' wide, so take another 45' out of the width. Now you have 55' of width so your current is now pushing 16-18 mph through each of the four 15' slots. Add to that, there's usually a couple fallen trees hanging on the center abutments and you're now in strainer ****. It's your 2nd day in a kayak....

People just do not know the power of moving water.

I recall guarding during some team practices on the East Race in South Bend. The kayakers were very adamant that they did not need any help, and were actually quite offended if you'd throw them a rope when they got hung up. They'd actually angrilly yell at you.

So, what happens? One of them noses over an obstacle, the tip of their boat jams into something on the bottom, and the water starts pouring over their back, forcing their face and chest down onto their thighs, and that's about that. They aren't going anywhere. They gonna die in about 90 seconds.

Now these are olympic team wannabes. Not inexperienced at all. But they gonna die. No boat can stop above them. No boat can paddle upstream to them. They can't get out of the boat. They can't self rescue. They can't grab a rope if it's tossed to them. They gonna die.

So I radio up to the head gates and they start closing the gates to shut off the water. That takes about 4 minutes. After about 30 seconds, I jump in upstream of the boat and manage to shoot over the obstacle right next to the boat and grab the life vest of the paddler. That slows me down enough so that I can put my feet on the bottom right around where the tip of the boat is stuck. And I am able to grab their chest and pull their head above water enough to get their mouth free. And there I stand for another two minutes until the water goes down enough to free them from the boat.

And what do I get?

Why did it take you so long? Why didn't you throw me a rope? Why do they pay you to stand there? Why? Why? Why? Pinheads.