Surveyor question (goes along with HVAC!)

[Richard]

Since this is only moderately related to HVAC I figured new thread.

I have some kind of plot map. This was used (evidently) when the land was deeded over to my wife.

Just to keep this story simple... my house sits on a square piece of land. The gravel driveway you see when you drive up is NOT my actual/legal driveway. It's the gravel road that has been used for driving around on the farm for 30 years. We DO have an easement for using this.

My legal driveway (for simple conversation) extends out the SIDE of my house and extends through the woods. My legal driveway is 25' long and is evidently about 1 1/4 acres of net land. I'm not sure how long that makes it but that gives you an idea of length.

The legal driveway has a couple dogleg turns in it and comes out on the county road. Part of it (probably nearing 3/4 of the length) is in walkable terratory and the last part is in the woods, still walkable.

Here's my question.

This map has all sorts of coordinates where each bend in the drive is. Lat/Long kind of things.

I know that no one here can give an accurate answer to this question BUT...

If I wanted a surveyor to come out and put some spray paint along my borders (or maybe stake it?) with the coordinates already known, is this something that might cost $400 or $1,500?

No work done MAKING the datapoints, just finding them and marking them. This way, I might be able to use this legal driveway as my burial plot for the geothermal system we're looking at and still keep the system buried on "my" land.

Is there some other way I might be able to plot these coordinates into something and discover the answer myself??

If so, I'd rather spend $400 to buy the tool and do it myself, than spend $400 for someone else to do it (that make sense?)

 

[MarkV]

Minimal experience here Richard, I would expect it to cost $500+ based on estimates to mark a fence line at my place. I would also closely look at whether you can put the Geo loop under a drive and still make it a drive in the future if the need arose.

MarkV

 

[Richard]

I hadn't thought of that angle I must admit.

However..... the basic problem today is the wife doesn't seem to want to even bring the issue up with her father about us buying a parcel of ground so we can build this. putting it on the land around my house is evidently 99% ruled out although I have ONE more question to ask the guy (can we drop closed loops into the well, I'm expecting that answer to be negative.)

Hate to word it this way...but when the current generation passes (mid 80's) she will inherit 25 acres of the 250.

I will admit that I don't know what will happen but I think it's certainly fair to argue/suggest/speculate that since she (and her cousin next door) are the only ones living out here (not counting spouses), I think it's very reasonable that when she gets her 25 acres to suggest at least PART of them (maybe one?) if not all of them, be adjacent to her (our) existing property.

If this is reasonable and indeed happened, then it would be a relatively moot point since she could gain ownership of something.

As for me ever putting a legit driveway where the land plot calls for it? I would have to say it would take about an act of congress for me to do it. I already have two graveled ways in/out with an easement for both. I'm about a zillion percent sure that I'm never going to willingly create a driveway through the woods since it would simply become an expense to create.

I'm sure enough about that, I'm willing to put a loop under it and take my chances.

To tell the truth, the genuinely realistic risk is... putting the loop under the legal driveway and 5 years from now, be working on the farm behind the houses, digging some stumps or something and oops....forgetting where my driveway is and hack through the lines

THAT is something I could see happening

 

[chh]

I was just invloved in getting a piece of church property surveyed, a relatively small job, and the price was $700. That was for a full legal survey and documentation though.

 

[Dmace]

I as well as many other surveyors in my area do not charge for a quote, so you lose nothing by getting one. If you have coordinates for some known boundaries like property corners, wells, building corners, etc... that a surveyor could use to "tie-in" to this survey then it would be an easy task and not very expensive. Now if all you have is the coordinates for the driveway then the surveyor has no way of knowing the exact points as they pertain to the ground since no coordinate system is a set standard and they can be off by as much as 40ft.

BTW, if your driveway is 1-1/4 acres and 25ft wide, that would make it roughly 2178ft long (25ft wide x 2178ft long = 54,450 sq.ft. = 1.25 acres)

 

[SuperDuty335]

You can expect to pay anywhere from $0.35 to $0.75 per horizontal foot for line marking. The coordinates you mention may be relative to the state coordinate system or perhaps just arbitrarily chosen for your particular plat. Regardless, there should be a distance and bearing for each line segment. If the plat and easement record are fairly new, marking the lines should be simple.

 

[Richard]

It's been 10/11 years since done...however...(light bulb goes off in head) I looked at the map and it has the name of the guy who actually did it. I'd like to think if he's still around he'd have an advantage of what the numbers mean since he already walked it.

Bad part is... he's in another town 50 miles away. I have no idea how he got to do it in the first place, but I don't care about that.

Planning on calling him later today.

 

[dooleysm]

Have you looked into a vertical closed loop? I believe "they" can basically drill a well and sink your closed loop system straight down.

We have a horizontal closed loop, and I think we only had to run a 300' trench. It didn't require nearly as much as I assumed going in.

 

[zzvyb6]

Try using Google Earth just for no-cost fun. A few fish finders that are GPS based will do a decent (not perfect) job. You need to have an airport locally to take advantage of "differential GPS" which uses the known location of the airport's beacon to give much better accuracy.

 

[dmccarty]

Its been a few years since we had some property lines redone. I THINK it was about $100 per hour which included four men. They remarked a 850ish foot long line. And then did another 850ish long line. To find a verify a good corner they ended up marking/check about 1400-1500ish feet total for that one 850ish foot line. They also rechecked/remarked a bunch of corner pins. I think this cost me $800ish for a days work back in 2002ish.

For the most part this was all in thick woods. Part of the 1400-1500 feet they worked was already cleared for them and not too bad. The rest is/was pretty thick.

I used the same company that laid out the property lines decades ago. They had the plots in house.

Later,
Dan

 

[Richard]

I was quoted $106/hour but they need to find an iron pin and might need to clear some of the land so they can see.

I said will try to find the pin and might take the bushog out there to knock most of it down. Problem with cutting back there is, since I don't know where the lines might be, I might (will!) cut in the wrong places.


Question on GPS if I may...

I'm holding this survey in my hands. There are numbers on it like:

S 10 (zero with line through it) 42'00"E
39.27'


Is there anything that I could purchase that would either read that out to me or somehow allow me to translate it to a location on the ground?

He said, without seeing my place, he'd speculate this to cost about $700 for them to shoot. If accurate AND if I could buy a GPS that would do this for same money... (I always prefer to buy the tool instead of paying to have it done)

 

[MarkV]

Richard I am wondering and some here on the forum may know, surveyors are accustom to having to be accurate within small margins which requires a lot of technology and detail research. If you are digging a trench to do nothing more than bury piping can the center line of your drive be determined, say +or- 3', at a cheaper rate? I am thinking that if your drive easement is 25' wide that should put you comfortably within the boundaries for a 2 or 3" wide trench.

Just reread your first post and you say the drive is only 25' long. Was that a typo? If not I would think you will have trouble putting in a 600' loop unless the easement if very wide.

MarkV

 

[Richard]

Musta been a type. It's 25' wide and the total area of it is equal to 1.2584 acres. So, what ever land mass equalaling 1.25 acres measured at 25' wide by ?? long is about how long it is.

I think I saw a 30' by about 1,400' stretch is about 1 acre so is this maybe pushing 2,000'??

plenty of room to lay the length down. I didn't think of your logic, though I like it I think I need two trenches? one for outgoing and circle it around for the return? This would give better seperation of the underground pipes. (my understanding, not saying it's right)

The HVAC guy said once I know where I want to put it they will mark out where it has to be dug.

 

[buckeyefarmer]

I was quoted $106/hour but they need to find an iron pin and might need to clear some of the land so they can see.

I said will try to find the pin and might take the bushog out there to knock most of it down. Problem with cutting back there is, since I don't know where the lines might be, I might (will!) cut in the wrong places.


Question on GPS if I may...

I'm holding this survey in my hands. There are numbers on it like:

S 10 (zero with line through it) 42'00"E
39.27'


Is there anything that I could purchase that would either read that out to me or somehow allow me to translate it to a location on the ground?

He said, without seeing my place, he'd speculate this to cost about $700 for them to shoot. If accurate AND if I could buy a GPS that would do this for same money... (I always prefer to buy the tool instead of paying to have it done)

I just paid $140 /hr for 2 man field crew, $65 /hr for office work for a survey.

Your line is 10 degree, 42 min, 00 sec 39.27 feet long, measured South to East. Subtract from 90 to get E to S angle. It's the angle of the line.

 

[toddbailey]

Musta been a type. It's 25' wide and the total area of it is equal to 1.2584 acres. So, what ever land mass equalaling 1.25 acres measured at 25' wide by ?? long is about how long it is.

I think I saw a 30' by about 1,400' stretch is about 1 acre so is this maybe pushing 2,000'??

plenty of room to lay the length down. I didn't think of your logic, though I like it I think I need two trenches? one for outgoing and circle it around for the return? This would give better seperation of the underground pipes. (my understanding, not saying it's right)

The HVAC guy said once I know where I want to put it they will mark out where it has to be dug.

Richard I have been in the surveying bus. for 10+ years the quote for 106 an hr sounds legit to me my best advice is to tell you to let a surveyor do the job for you provide him metal "t" fence post to put on the line and be prepared if he doesnt find the irons or the angles & distances dont match he will have to survey the whole property or refuse to do the job so it could end up costing you a bundle

 

[Richard]

Your line is 10 degree, 42 min, 00 sec 39.27 feet long, measured South to East. Subtract from 90 to get E to S angle. It's the angle of the line.

Ok, now THIS finally tells me something very interesting (even if it only confirms to me that I don't know my hiney from a door knob )

Now that I see this translation, is there a tool that a home owner could buy/use to get this approximated?

Not mentioned yet is, there are actually THREE of these 'phantom driveways' going through the woods. One is mine, adjacent is my wifes cousin (next door) and adjacent to that is her fathers.

We have a 75' swath through the woods to the paved road, marked as individual 25' drives. NO ONE will ever willingly put a drive there since we all have a gravel road to our homes coming in from the other direction, complete with easements.

It has been discussed quietly to "just find the 75' swath and use what you need" although I personally think if I can find my own driveway I need to use it. No sense in creating problems down the road for the next home owners.

 

[Richard]

my best advice is to tell you to let a surveyor do the job for you provide him metal "t" fence post to put on the line and be prepared if he doesnt find the irons or the angles & distances dont match he will have to survey the whole property or refuse to do the job so it could end up costing you a bundle

Thank you Todd. Question... would you think it makes MORE sense for me to call the guy who originally surveyed the land? If there are pins missing it's because he didn't install them

Downside is, he's 50 miles away instead of 15 like some of these others.

I'm trying to find a metal detector so I can find one/more of the pins. I think if I DO find them I might paint them flourescent green/orange and maybe even put a stake near them.

Question II: I like your idea of T posts however they'd be in my way while driving the backhoe up there (not big deal)... the driveway is "sort of" straight. There are no sharp turns in it but maybe like a dogs leg with more bends in it... Would you put a post at each bend in the dogleg or only at distinct (90 degree type) turns?

 

[toddbailey]

Thank you Todd. Question... would you think it makes MORE sense for me to call the guy who originally surveyed the land? If there are pins missing it's because he didn't install them

Downside is, he's 50 miles away instead of 15 like some of these others.

I'm trying to find a metal detector so I can find one/more of the pins. I think if I DO find them I might paint them flourescent green/orange and maybe even put a stake near them.

Question II: I like your idea of T posts however they'd be in my way while driving the backhoe up there (not big deal)... the driveway is "sort of" straight. There are no sharp turns in it but maybe like a dogs leg with more bends in it... Would you put a post at each bend in the dogleg or only at distinct (90 degree type) turns?

no problem anytime

most of the time it does pay to contact the original surveyor he is familiar with property and already has the court house research and other materials in office

if you find any of the pins do put a "t" post beside it and paint it orange just remember not to drive the post to close to the pin (couple of inches away is good)

i would put the post at every bend

 

[dooleysm]

Musta been a type. It's 25' wide and the total area of it is equal to 1.2584 acres. So, what ever land mass equalaling 1.25 acres measured at 25' wide by ?? long is about how long it is.

I think I saw a 30' by about 1,400' stretch is about 1 acre so is this maybe pushing 2,000'??

plenty of room to lay the length down. I didn't think of your logic, though I like it I think I need two trenches? one for outgoing and circle it around for the return? This would give better seperation of the underground pipes. (my understanding, not saying it's right)

The HVAC guy said once I know where I want to put it they will mark out where it has to be dug.

The trench for my system was 300' long, 2' wide, 6' deep. They went out and back with the loop in the same trench. The closed loop system is filled with water and some other stuff. Likely something with a lower freezing point and possibly with some other lubricating or other desireable properties.

 

[dmccarty]

Richard,

I forgot to mention this about geothermal. Years ago, maybe 2002-2004 there was an article in either Journal of Light Construction(JLC) or Fine Home Building about geothermal HVAC. The article was written by a man out of Apex, NC. I know the JLC web site will allow you to search for an article and read a summary. You have to pay a fee to read the article or join the website. Not sure what Fine Home Building handles their old articles.

In the article they just dug one trench for the lines. The first thing that pops into my head is that they buried the half of the line going into the house at the bottom of the trench. The half of the line leaving the house was higher in the trench. Seems strange once I think about it from an installation point of view....

I have put TPosts to mark our corner pins. I swear I put some up on the east side of our land and someone stole them.

Regarding using a GPS to find the line. Maybe. I have used our GPS to kinda find the line. But I only need to sorta find the line between pins. I just want to clear out the brush to get a sight line from pin to pin. I don't think the neighbors will care if I cut up a Russion Olive invasive plant on their land by mistake. For putting in something like a geothermal line I would pay the surveyor to find the line unless I was danged sure of the location. Our GPS in heavy forest might be accurate to 10ish feet or so. But that is plus minus. So I could be 10 feet on THEIR land or 10 feet on my land.

Later,
Dan