Synthetic oil worth it? 18k hour yamaha generator says no.

[lilranch2001]

Good debate, keep it coming
I am currently debating on switching to T6 Rotella, from T5 in my tractor

I am seriously considering doing it

 

[vsteel]

Here is my anecdotal evidence. I had a Triumph Speed Triple and have a Triumph Tiger Explorer, each of them would have the shifting get harder and more notchy as the oil would break down. I tried lots of different oils and the semi synthetics would last the shortest time. I tried several different full synthetic oils and the highest mileage oil before the shifting got too bad was Shell Rotella T6. I still had to change the oil though about 3500 miles on a recommended interval of 5K because of the shifting. I knew it was the oil because I would change the oil and it would shift like a dream. Now a motorcycle is very hard on oil compared to a normal engine because it shares it with the gearbox and is a lot higher revving.

In the motorcycle world Shell Rotella T6 is very popular. I will note that I never tried Amzoil or Schaeffer or any other oil I could get a Walmart, Napa, or some other retail outlet.

The other thing to keep in mind is the best oil today might not be the best tomorrow because they are always changing their formulation.

 

[Copperhead]

Yes they are. Really hard to stay abreast of oils nowadays.

 

[kenmac]

They sure do change their formulations from time to time.. They have to to stay in business.. Most of the off the shelf oils have lowered their TBN ,and additives to stay competitive..

Call Mobile 1 ,and ask them what their TBN #'s are for a their oils,,, Ask them what their other additives are. They won't tell you. I was a customer.. If they won't tell me what's in their oil, I don't need to use them... The only way for you to know is to buy the oil ,and have it tested..
Amsoil post their TBN along with other additives right on their site..If something isn't there.. you can call and ask.. They will tell you..

I use Amsoil in everything I own.. Amsoil 2 cycle oil can be mixed @100 to 1...I mix it 80 to 1 and run it in High dollar blowers, trimmers, and chainsaws... What other 2 cycle oil can boast 100 to 1 ratios ?? There may be some out there, but I know Amsoil works.. My equipment is proof..

I will say this.. Heat is the killer of oil. Off the shelf Conventional oil just can't hold up to the quality synthetics.........

If you're on the fence about synthetics...............Go buy your favorite off the shelf Dino oil. Put in a pan over a flame ,and measure the temp as it starts to fry in the pan.. Then get a group IV or V and perform the same test.. See the results right B-4 your eyes !
Like I said,, I ran a Cummins 6 cyl 1 million miles on synthetic with no part failures

 

[Copperhead]

Part of the reason TBN has been reduced is the prevalence of ULSD fuel. Not nearly as much TBN needed for typical oil change intervals compared to pre-ULSD fuel. Well, the frying pan idea is interesting, and I suppose it might have some bearing, but most HD engines have oil coolers that keep oil no hotter than prevailing cooling system. You keep mentioning your Cummins going to 1 mil. That is normal for most Cummins engines, as well as Detroits and Cats, and not have a major component failure or oil related problem. Most major diesel engine builders are claiming B20 rates of over 1 million miles. B20 refers that less than 20% will need an overhaul before 1 million miles. I know you're giddy over taking a motor that long without a major repair, but it has been the norm for many HD diesel owners for years now. And the majority of them are on conventional oils. It is the total motor oil chemistry that makes a oil good, better, or best. Only motors that have been treated poorly seem to fair poorly in the longevity department.

But lets go with your Amsoil you use.....

What is the Zinc level in the Amsoil you are using? How about the Phosphorus? And the Calcium?, and the Magnesium? Throw in the Antimony or Molybdenum level? I would suppose you are aware of what these components functions are and how they are important to any oil, be it syntethic or conventional and how the levels of them, and in what balance, determine the quality of the product. I contend, as I have, that the additive package that is a part of ANY motor oil, synthetic or conventional, has as much or more to do with it being average or superior. Base oil can bring something to the party also, but with the advances in base oil refining over the last 10-15 years, that part of the equation is overlapping. I know what is in my motor oil additives, as I have run multiple dozens of samples on the oils I use. Anyone else can find this info out by sending in a virgin oil sample to a used oil testing lab and they will tell you what the levels of the additive components are. All for about $20. And virtually every oil blender posts the TBN level of their various oils on their website. Maybe you didn't get it when you called Mobil, but I looked and their Delvac 1540 Super TBN 10.5, Elite syn blend 15w40 10.7 TBN, and their Delvac 1 5w40 synthetic, an even 10 TBN. About average across the board for all major brands.

For the Schaeffer 711 10w30 HDEO syn blend I primarily use in most of my stuff...

Zinc 1573
Phosphorus 1276
Calcium 1494
Magnesium 985
Molybdenum 68

I would further contend, that if you filled up your motor with a best synthetic that did not have a solid add pack to go with it, you would destroy a good motor quicker than with a conventional that has a stout additive package. There is considerably more to what an oil has to do than deal with heat or cold. And the Pennzoil conventional I referenced early has a NOACK (burn off rate) of 4.1. Let's take a look at the boutique Amsoil stuff...... Their Premium 5w40 full synthetic... 9.1. Higher that even the lowly syn blend I use. That is barely inside the maximum standard for dexos1 specs of 12 NOACK. That stuff will "cook off" at a rate twice the Pennzoil Conventional I linked to. But to be fair, lets only look at the gasoline oils, which the Pennzoil is targeted at. And keep it in the same 10w30 grade with both. The Pennzoil 10w30 conventional, like I stated, 4.1 NOACK. The Amsoil Signature 10w30, 5.3, and that is the lowest of their entire Signature series oil line. The Pennzoil 10w30 conventional beats the ENTIRE Amsoil lineup for NOACK (burn off) rating. So I still contend that the base oil is not nearly as important in today's oils as the additive package. Would have been a major difference 20 years ago, but those days have gone bye-bye.

Amsoil will post TBN and NOACK ratings but they do not post additive levels of their oils. Here is a data sheet direct from Amsoil website... please inform us of where the additive levels are listed.... I can't seem to find any mention of Zinc, Calcium, Phosphorus, Magnesium, Antimony, or Molybdenum anywhere. And those are the PRIMARY elements of a typical additive package of any oil. lots of marketing claims in this data sheet, but no mention of additive package outside of TBN, and there is a lot more to the story than TBN alone.

http://www.amsoil.com/lit/databulletins/g2880.pdf

I am NOT putting down Amsoil. They have some fine products. I even use a few of their products. I actually use 5 different brands depending on what I am using them for. But in many ways, Amsoil is not all that stellar above the other major brands. I have often wondered why they never compare their oils to Schaeffer (my primary brand), who has been in the lube business longer than anyone, since 1839, and developed the lubes for the Apache Attack Helicopter and M1 Abrams Tank, and also make some specialty products for Shell Oil. Along with being listed as in the top 500 most technologically advanced companies in America. I would like to see Amsoil stack their oil up against Schaeffer at least once.

 

[2ndhalf]

My wife's vehicle requires this and mine will too as soon as I run out of the Mobile 1 Synthetic I bought for it that it required when it was on sale. I determine what my vehicles require based on what I read in the owner manual; vehicle link not necessary.Supposedly it has stuff (scientific descrption) that clings to the cyclindar walls to reduce engine wear at startup.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/35931147?...72774248&wl4=&wl5=pla&wl6=88769179497&veh=sem

 

[kenmac]

Well,, every engine out there doesn't have an oil cooler..
Heat is still a killer for oil, Even for engines with an oil cooler... Oil is circulated through the hot engine , where the oil picks up heat in to aid in cooling the engine... It is then circulated through the cooler. So,the oil has already picked up the heat from the engine.. The oil then goes through the cooler to somewhat cool the oil B-4 the next trip through the hot engine.. This where a Group IV or V synthetic beats conventional oil...


About what brand the government uses in their vehicles / aircraft etc,.. They use Schaeffer ,because they most likely gave them the lowest bid for the specs. Not necessarily because they are the best lubricant ..

You were first talking about conventional oils being better, or equal to synthetics.. Now you are talking about a specialty oil..
I'll admit Schaeffer's makes a quality product.. But again, it isn't an off the shelf conventional off the shelf motor oil like you were 1 st speaking of..

If you look back on my post.. I stated, that the off the shelf conventional oils you were speaking of can't stand with a group IV or V synthetic.. Schaeffer's makes a good product, but you weren't speaking of Schaeffer's.. Without looking it up, I would guess Schaeffer's is a group IV or V oil, which would fall in the category of oils I was speaking of.. I would consider Schaeffer a specialty oil like Red line, Royal purple Amsoil, etc..

 

[Copperhead]

Ok, let's stick with heat, and only "off the shelf" oil. What is the high temp flash point rating of, say, a typical conventional 15w40? According to Mobil, their conventional 1300 Super 15w40 has a flash point of 230C/446F. Their top end Delvac 1 synthetic 5w40 is 249C/480F. Similar to anything else "off the shelf" and even the boutique oils like Amsoil. Not really that much of a difference, and both comfortably within the range of any working engine temps. But let's take it a step further. The typical turbo temps and EGT's under a full load on a diesel reach into 1100F or more territory. Why is it a engine with that kind of temps also not destroying the conventional oil that is being fed to that turbo? Or even a synthetic for that matter? Even 1.4 million miles like my Cummins N-14 running a conventional Kendall 15w40 did and still had the original factory turbo? And I already stated that NOACK (burn off rates) are not really that much different between modern conventional oils and synthetics. The frying pan test you mentioned earlier doesn't even approach the temps we are now discussing at the turbo.

The only appreciable difference between conventional and synthetic is cold flow pour points, additive solubility, along with the amount of viscosity improvers that are needed in a multi vis variety. And base oil itself does not shear out of viscosity, it is the viscosity improvers (VI) that can and sometimes do, and then only under the most extreme of circumstances that few people will ever put an engine thru. Even Detroit Diesel, on their DD15 engine, has recommended oil change intervals of 50,000 miles / 1280 hrs, and that is using conventional "off the shelf" oils! They do not differentiate between conventional or synthetic in their maintenance recommendation. And these modern emission laden engines are operating at real temps that are higher than anything previous.

Be that as it may. I have grown partial to syn blend motor oils for a variety of reasons. Each type of base oil has something special to bring to the party and the overall cost benefit ratio is as good with any conventional oil. And far and away exceeds the cost benefit ratio of full synthetic versions of the same grade and classification. I will use full synthetics in transmission and differentials, but that is primarily because they are closed systems that undergo a different environment than engines, and shearing pressures are significantly more intense. And because, on my commercial stuff, the OEM automatically increases the factory warranty by 50% if synthetics are used in those components along with increasing recommend change intervals from 150,000 miles to 500,000 miles. They do not do the same thing for engines.

Oh, I did not mention that the Government was using Schaeffer, though they may be. I merely stated that Schaeffer was the one that developed the lube specifications for the Apache and M1. Any brand that meets the same specs can be used. Try not to read more into what I actually state. I am quite aware that lowest bidder applies. We use to comment in the Army how our weapons were made by the lowest bidder.

 

[kenmac]

That's why there are deposits in your engine and turbo..Because the conventional oil burns off at those high temps ,therefore leaving deposits throughout the engine and on the turbo bearings..This example;::::: https://mobiloil.com/en/article/why...il-1-high-temperature-motor-oil-protection::: may help you ....I don't have my teaching degree handy

You almost got it word for word off bob is the oil guy's site..''Shchaffer was behind the development of the lubes for the Apache Helicopter & the M1 Abrams ... I find no mention of this statement anywhere else

 

[dickfoster]

I'm a believer in synthetic and have been for a number of years after much hemming and hawing and looking into it. I use synth engine oil, gear lube in the gear boxes and even synthetic grease. I had an engine that was torn down with 100K on the clock and it still looked brand new inside. I'd switched over to synth at about 30K.
I tried to switch my wife but she was having none of it because her mechanic said to use dyno juice. They like that easy money I guess. Well guess what, Subi starting shipping their cars with synth in the block a few years back and recently her mechanic (yeah same one) advised her to switch to synth too because Subi recommended it, especially since her car has a turbo. Turbo means high temp and dyno juice simply breaks down faster with heat than the synthetic stuff.
You'd think that since they never or rarely ever change the oil in jet engines and they run with synthetic oil, that has something to say about it. All they do is analyse the oil in the engine and add anything that's needed.
Rather than go through all that chemical analysys and extra filtering stuff, I just change the oil and filter every 5K and figure I'm at least as well off cost wise.
I started with Amsoil but later switched over to Mobil 1 full synthetic due to availability, cost and all the hyping Amsoil does to build up their dealer network. Sometimes it's better to know when to stop selling.
After it's broken in, I'll most likely run full synth in the new tractor too. For peace of mind, it's worth the extra cost to me.