Tesla semi

[vvanders]

I would be. Right now it's a pipe dream. There is nothing on the horizon that is going to make a dent in our current structure, and with the mindless greenies winning the war against nukes, it's only going to get worse.

In my mind Hydro and Solar + Storage with some mix of Nuclear is where we're probably going to land.

Here in the PNW we've got *tons* of hydro power. Our local PUD is only6 % Oil based and the rest is pretty green. Hydro certainly has it's own ecological issues but it's much more practical than other sources in areas where it's deployable.

 

[dragoneggs]

Where is the oil come from? The truth is that ecar is about 5 times more efficient than ice.

About 5 to 1. ICE car produces (all included) about five times more polution per life of the car than ecar. Ecars are quiet, no more rumbling exhausts.

Where is your data???

 

[toppop52]

No one's screaming about the oil subsidies that exist either if we want to start talking about those. Just gas production alone was on the order of 10B(yes billion with a B) in 2010 and 5B in 2013. U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

Got a citation for danger in accidents? Tesla has the highest safety rating of any passenger vehicle.

Road wear is no different than a half-ton pickup, unless you're telling me modern infrastructure can't handle more trucks on the road(our 1500 Eco Diesel and Tesla weight near the same).

Carbon footprint isn't too hard to figure out. The only substantial difference between a traditional car and EV is the battery pack/motor. Here's a study that finds battery impact is less than 5% of total impact of vehicle and EVs outstrip ICE by a pretty wide margin: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/es903729a

To put it in other words, if you get 100k mi from the lifetime of a car the difference in battery production is going to have to be the same as burning 3,300+ gallons of gas at 30mpg. I just don't see how that gets anywhere close to battery production as lithium mining is pretty low impact(mostly salt pools) and aluminum/copper production is pretty well understood.

What is the actual carbon footprint vs say a diesel Cruze ? I’m seeing lots of things said but not too many real numbers. Plus modern cars are not being dumped 100000 miles, more like 300000, your battery pack last that long without replacement? If it weighs the same as your truck, then it is a lot heavier than the average sedan, and yes batteries are dangerous in accident scenarios.
I am not saying you are wrong and I am right, I’m just not seeing the proof, and buyers aren’t exactly flocking to them. The article you cited only addressed battery production.

 

[toppop52]

So this diagram from the study I linked earlier puts ICE pollution at 25% MFG, 75% Operation (40% / 160%, from bottom figure).

Battery production all-up as 12% (15% / 160%) of an ICE's footprint.

Assuming you get your energy from a clean source(hydro, solar, etc) instead of traditional natural gas power production as listed in the article you'd see EVs as 55% / 160% so about 1/3 less emissions than traditional vehicle.

I'd agree with you that it's not 5x, but that's certainly no small drop either. Add that with less maintenance, cheaper to operate and 100% torque from 0 RPM I see EVs getting pretty compelling within the next 10-15 years.

Assuming you get your energy from solar? It痴 a miniscule drop in the bucket, these cars, not just the batteries, require at least as much energy to build. Where is the shipping and disposal cost and footprint?

 

[dragoneggs]

Assuming you get your energy from solar? Itç—´ a miniscule drop in the bucket, these cars, not just the batteries, require at least as much energy to build. Where is the shipping and disposal cost and footprint?

Yes, the mining, processing, and disposal of heavy metals to manufacture these batteries is not 'clean'. Tesla (started in California) had to locate their big battery plant outside of Reno, NV because California said, HECK NO! It's one of those... "Yeah I want it!... but not in my back yard."

 

[houstonscott]

Will one of you EV owners run it to zero and charge it up to 100% with your Honda generator and tell us how many miles per gallon you got.

 

[dragoneggs]

Will one of you EV owners run it to zero and charge it up to 100% with your Honda generator and tell us how many miles per gallon you got.

And how long to fully charge? If I'm out in the Yellowstone with my generator, I want to know if this pitstop is an overnighter and I am pitching a tent or time enough to get pop and chips for the next segment?

 

[vvanders]

What is the actual carbon footprint vs say a diesel Cruze ? I知 seeing lots of things said but not too many real numbers. Plus modern cars are not being dumped 100000 miles, more like 300000, your battery pack last that long without replacement? If it weighs the same as your truck, then it is a lot heavier than the average sedan, and yes batteries are dangerous in accident scenarios.
I am not saying you are wrong and I am right, I知 just not seeing the proof, and buyers aren稚 exactly flocking to them. The article you cited only addressed battery production.

Did you see the paper I linked?

The vehicle we studied was comparable to a Volkswagen Golf in size and power, had a range of around 200 km per charge (battery weight, 300 kg; battery capacity, 0.114 kWh/kg battery (10)) and an assumed lifetime of 150 000 km.

Battery packs are holding up just fine: Tesla Model S battery degradation data | Steinbuch based on the real world data you'd see degradation to 90% capacity at 300k miles which seems pretty reasonable to me. It also lines up with what I'm seeing with my pack at 61k.

If you can link me a single injury/death related to battery packs happy to admit that point. However there's some pretty good breakdown of the whole battery pack/fire thing( Number of Tesla Fire-Related Deaths Per Year Equals What? | Inside EVs ) that points to it being a non-issue. On the flip side of that not having a giant mass of metal up front that you have to hinge under the passengers means that you can build a safer car. The pack actually acts as a shear reinforcement and makes the Model S one of the safest cars. Heck the broke the testing machine for roll-over test at 4Gs.

As for demand, Tesla is production constrained right now, and that's for cars at the $100k price point. There's over 250,000 pre-orders for the Model 3. There's demand for a car that's done right with the matching charging infrastructure.

 

[vvanders]

And how long to fully charge? If I'm out in the Yellowstone with my generator, I want to know if this pitstop is an overnighter and I am pitching a tent or time enough to get pop and chips for the next segment?

There's a supercharger at 191 & 20. Takes about 30 minutes to top up, hardly an over-nighter. There's also another one at Jackson and one going into Cody soon.

 

[Redneck in training]

Did you say quiet??
Will Harley make an electric bike with a throttle control noise generating system?

I hate HD motorcycles. We live about a mile from paved road and I hear every HD. I don't get why motorcycles manufacturers can't come up with a quiet muflers.

 

[Redneck in training]

Will one of you EV owners run it to zero and charge it up to 100% with your Honda generator and tell us how many miles per gallon you got.

You get diesel geny and burn offroad diesel. Hehe.

 

[sd455dan]

Will one of you EV owners run it to zero and charge it up to 100% with your Honda generator and tell us how many miles per gallon you got.

here's a vid on using mountain mode on a 1st gen Volt to recharge - Self Charging Chevy Volt - YouTube


and the aprox amount of miles the gas generated

14 miles generated used .36 gallon about 38 mpg per gallon- about the same as the MPG rating

 

[Streetcar]

I hate HD motorcycles. We live about a mile from paved road and I hear every HD. I don't get why motorcycles manufacturers can't come up with a quiet muflers.

A lot of motorcycle drivers like to be obnoxiously loud, there are quiet motorcycles if you want one

 

[aczlan]

What is the actual carbon footprint vs say a diesel Cruze ? I’m seeing lots of things said but not too many real numbers. Plus modern cars are not being dumped 100000 miles, more like 300000, your battery pack last that long without replacement? If it weighs the same as your truck, then it is a lot heavier than the average sedan, and yes batteries are dangerous in accident scenarios.
I am not saying you are wrong and I am right, I’m just not seeing the proof, and buyers aren’t exactly flocking to them. The article you cited only addressed battery production.

We have a friend who had a first-generation Prius which he traded in at over 400,000 miles (mostly in Upstate NY) with the original battery pack. He said that it had lost a little bit of capacity but not a whole lot. Maybe 80% of what it was originally?

Aaron Z

 

[dragoneggs]

We have a friend who had a first-generation Prius which he traded in at over 400,000 miles (mostly in Upstate NY) with the original battery pack. He said that it had lost a little bit of capacity but not a whole lot. Maybe 80% of what it was originally?

Aaron Z

That's pretty impressive in my book!

 

[Redneck in training]

Where is your data???

Average refinery turns out about 19 gal of gasoline and 11 gal of diesel from 42 gal (1 barrel) of crude.
The refinery consume about 7 kWh/gal of fuel to do so.

1 barrel of crude oil is equivalent to 1675.5 kWh of energy.
Refinery produces about 19 gal of gasoline equivalent to 644.6 kWh
Refinery produces about 11 gal of diesel equivalent to 417 kWh
Refinery uses about 7.4 kWh/gal to produce the fuels. Since the 7.4 kWh was generated at about 38% efficiency the actual energy consumption per gallon is 7.4/0.38=19.5
Sum it together:
(644.6+417-(19+11)*19.5)/1675.5=27.9 % efficient
ICE is about 20% at the best day.
Therefore it converts 20*.279=5.6% energy contained in the crude when it reached the refinery.

Average coal burning plant is about 36% efficient, combine cycle plants are pushing 65-70%, Average efficiency of fossil fuel power plant is about 38%. The total efficiency of all power plants combined is somewhat higher but I don't have the number.

The charging cycle of Li-ion batteries is about 99% efficient.
The electronics used to charge the batteries has about 96% efficeincy
The drive motors for cars are about 92% efficent.
To sum it up:
38*0.99*0.96*0.92=33.2% of fuel energy is converted to power.

This assumes the car mechanical losses and energy transportation cost are about the same. The fact is that transportation of electric energy is cheaper but I don't have the numbers.

33.2/5.6=5.92 E cars is about 5.92 time better user of energy.

Even if you use the best scenario of the refinery efficiency and the worst scenario of efficiency of electric power generation the ecar comes 5 times better.
Additionally as the lights are converted to o LED the coal power generation will need the ecars as night load. They will have hard time to stay in business without ecars or utility size energy storage.
Also if ecars are deployed in mass numbers oil might hit 10/barrel. Wouldn't it be nice for you ICE lovers?

 

[two_bit_score]

I can think of few things that are subsidized by the Federal Govt that make sense.

Then we have the TAX secret, YEA, electric cars don't pay any taxes vs 18 cents per gal on diesel and 24 cents per gal on gasoline. Anyone who think the FEDS don't know this is living in a dream world, Fuel taxes make up over 90 percent of total highway tax revenue @ $38 Billion per year >

The FEDS are gonna get their pound of flesh sooner or later and that is a SAFE BET!

And besides what good is a $100K Tesla if you have no highway to drive it on?



TBS

 

[dragoneggs]

Average refinery turns out about 19 gal of gasoline and 11 gal of diesel from 42 gal (1 barrel) of crude.
The refinery consume about 7 kWh/gal of fuel to do so.

1 barrel of crude oil is equivalent to 1675.5 kWh of energy.
Refinery produces about 19 gal of gasoline equivalent to 644.6 kWh
Refinery produces about 11 gal of diesel equivalent to 417 kWh
Refinery uses about 7.4 kWh/gal to produce the fuels. Since the 7.4 kWh was generated at about 38% efficiency the actual energy consumption per gallon is 7.4/0.38=19.5
Sum it together:
(644.6+417-(19+11)*19.5)/1675.5=27.9 % efficient
ICE is about 20% at the best day.
Therefore it converts 20*.279=5.6% energy contained in the crude when it reached the refinery.

Average coal burning plant is about 36% efficient, combine cycle plants are pushing 65-70%, Average efficiency of fossil fuel power plant is about 38%. The total efficiency of all power plants combined is somewhat higher but I don't have the number.

The charging cycle of Li-ion batteries is about 99% efficient.
The electronics used to charge the batteries has about 96% efficeincy
The drive motors for cars are about 92% efficent.
To sum it up:
38*0.99*0.96*0.92=33.2% of fuel energy is converted to power.

This assumes the car mechanical losses and energy transportation cost are about the same. The fact is that transportation of electric energy is cheaper but I don't have the numbers.

33.2/5.6=5.92 E cars is about 5.92 time better user of energy.

Even if you use the best scenario of the refinery efficiency and the worst scenario of efficiency of electric power generation the ecar comes 5 times better.
Additionally as the lights are converted to o LED the coal power generation will need the ecars as night load. They will have hard time to stay in business without ecars or utility size energy storage.
Also if ecars are deployed in mass numbers oil might hit 10/barrel. Wouldn't it be nice for you ICE lovers?

Good stuff... but unless I am missing something, you are not accounting for the energy required to mine and produce heavy metals for batteries. This always seems to be the unmentioned variable. Not to mention how to deal with the waste/recycle issues. An ICE can be melted down and recycled easily. How about heavy metal batteries?

Are you a fan of nuclear energy? Why don't we have lots of miniature nuclear engines running around?

 

[Egon]

I hate HD motorcycles. We live about a mile from paved road and I hear every HD. I don't get why motorcycles manufacturers can't come up with a quiet muflers.

A street near our house see's a lot of summer Harley's. These seem to be ridden by hard of hearing old timers who can only tell if it's running by a throttle blip. Don't see why the vibration doesn't let them know.

Seems some Harley's have a counterbalance shaft but it is design not to eliminate all the vibration. Harley says the customers want vibration to maintain image. And it would seem the throttle blip is required to keep them from stalling. (Two Pistons on same crank throw )

 

[daugen]

Why don't we have lots of miniature nuclear engines running around?

now what kind of horsepower do you think I could get under the hood of my tractor?
Of course you have to keep traction up with horsepower. Just ask a Hellcat owner with stock tires.

I think the answer to this is not yet. Maybe not nuclear. Fusion if they can make it work.
Problem with having huge amounts of power in small spaces is when it wants to get out.
None of us want Saturn boosters under us. No one wants to blow up or get radiated.

It wasn't far West and a little South of me where that nuke bomb got dropped accidently in NC.
Lot of air force bases up and down the coast, always wonder what is flying over your head
and momma, don't drop the bomb on me.

It seems like our Navy is having a hard time sailing their ships competently at the moment; hope
the Air Force is doing better. My brother's son ran a nuke plant on a boomer sub, hope the subs are doing better than the surface craft.
They just have to stop running into things. They have the best of the best equipment, human error and training apparently is a problem.
And the point? Well we have lots of nuclear bombs and missiles around and recent events makes one wonder when the really big screwup will happen. The more atomic devices out there, the more massive power in small places and so far I haven't seen too many miniaturized atomic power plants. Could it be too much power to the people?

No matter what, you still have to get power to the electric motors or transmission.
A steam turbine is a bit complicated. Won't it always come back to electric power and electric motors or is there
some alternative for fusion type energy? The old question, how do you harness it?