Testing a well pump starter

[Phils]

My well stopped sending any water ... I can't feel the pump running, and I was able to before.

I've checked and am getting 240VAC through the pressure switch to this starter. With the starter off, I did a continuity test of the two pump wires and got a little over 5 ohms. I didn't test the "start" wire to the pump because I don't know what to test for on that wire.

The pump may be shot. It's been down there since at least 1993. However it is only run for 45 minutes every 4th day so it wouldn't have the hours on it that most would of that age. It's great water but we only get 55 gallons/day. I pump to a cistern that supplies our house pressure with a jet pump.

I THINK there's water in the well. It's never failed to refill after pumping in over 25 years. The early pumps died because of sand and dynamite plastic residue eating the impellers, no problems with motors.

How do you test these starters? I was hoping to open it and see someplace where the smoke got out, but it appears just fine. I know I could just buy another since (compared to the pump and labor for being replaced at 320') the cost should be rather low. But IF I need to replace the pump, I'm opting for a Grundfos helical rotor style pump rather than the centrifugal impeller type, since it is an unlined well and could/would still get debris and the helical rotor type is supposed to handle sand and debris with no problem. So I'm reluctant to buy another starter just to see if this one is bad.

Suggestions PLEASE.

Phil

 

[tommu56]

Phils
Hook up the box and take a voltage reading on the wires when it try's to start and is truing to run


Can you see in the well is there any evidence of the torque on the well pipe when it try's and starts?

These pumps are usually 2 phase with a relay to put the capacitor in the circuit to create the phase shift to start.


the grundfus pump i have at my cabin is 120v and has the progressive cavity like you are suggesting and it say's not to clean the well out with it it will damage it so pumping sand or dirty In my opinion would be just as bad as a centrifugal pump try and find a brass pump impellers instead of plastic they might last longer it that is the problem.
tom

 

[Phils]

Phils
Hook up the box and take a voltage reading on the wires when it try's to start and is truing to run


Can you see in the well is there any evidence of the torque on the well pipe when it try's and starts?

These pumps are usually 2 phase with a relay to put the capacitor in the circuit to create the phase shift to start.


the grundfus pump i have at my cabin is 120v and has the progressive cavity like you are suggesting and it say's not to clean the well out with it it will damage it so pumping sand or dirty In my opinion would be just as bad as a centrifugal pump try and find a brass pump impellers instead of plastic they might last longer it that is the problem.
tom

Thanks for the tips Tom. I'm not sure I can see if there's any torque without lifting the top of the well, which is pretty heavy with 320' of pipe full of water and a pump attached. I could make some short jumpers to test voltages when I try and start it but I'm not sure what I'd be looking for there, either.

The closest pump shop is about 25 miles away. Do they normally have a tester for these controllers? (I'll make phone calls AFTER I get advice/suggestons/knowledge from my friends here at TBN)

I have a tall engine A-frame that I could use with a winch to pull the pump. The piping is PVC in 10 ft sections. I'd consider putting one-piece poly back down.

The well actually is pretty clean now. The dynamite and sand problem was over two decades ago. Of course, pulling and replacing the pump would knock "stuff" in, but I'd wait a day before pumping.

I sure am interested in YOUR pump. I was looking at the SQFLEX series which'll use DC from 30 to 300V or AC from 90 to 240V. I'm guessing yours is a helical rotor made for 120V? THAT'S really what I need, IF I have to change pumps. I want to power it from a 2500Watt Xantrex SW series inverter and besides the helical rotor, the soft start and stop appeal to me. Do you know how many watts or amps yours takes (and how deep it is)?

Phil

 

[tommu56]

Yes that is the pump I have because I am off grid with it I have a 2850 watt invertor to power it off 1820ah battery setup running it on 120v

This is at my cabin i have a low yield well 20- 30 gpd and pump it 2 x a day to a cistern to store it while were not there and pump out of that while we are there

any motor shop can check the pump it dosen't have to be a well pump gut

tom

 

[heehaw]

the only thing i have ever seen happen to a starter is the capacitor go bad: if you have an ohm meter, disconnect the starter and check across the cap: it should show a short an then as it charges up, go to high resistance: if not, its bad an won't "start" the motor...you can see the cap in one of the pics you posted...with it out like in the pic, FIRST, put a screwdriver across the terminals to discharge any voltage that may be there: if it sparks i would bet its good: but then put the ohmeter across. if you end up needing a pump, look on ebay, i got a brand new one for a lot less than i could get anywhere else.
heehaw

 

[Phils]

heehaw,

I'll check the cap, tho I'm not holding my breath.

I was looking at eBay this morning but so far haven't seen anything that would work for me. I WILL keep checking tho.

tom,

What inverter are you using? I've been off-grid since '77 and currently use three inverters: lights/entertainment, appliances, and water pressure.

A Xantrex SW2500MC inverter powers the jet pump supplying pressure from the cistern with no problem. I'd just throw the breaker to that pump and use that inverter at 120V to run the well pump, rather than running the genset every four days. That inverter has the 56-step waveform IIRC and I haven't been able to find anywhere that says it'll work OK. I saw somewhere than MSW inverters won't work, and my battery bank is 12V so I can't use the DC option.

I burnt up my last jet pump using an old Heart Interface 2000w MSW inverter. The new pump likes the waveform from the Xantrex just fine, which leads me to believe it'd work for the Grundfos too.

I'd prefer NOT to buy another new inverter just to get True Sine Wave for just this.

And if I pull this pump, I won't need it tested as I'd not be putting a pump that old back down.

Are you using the CU200 control box or just the IO-100 on-off switch?

Phil

 

[tommu56]

Phils

Yes I have the cu200 controller.

But I turn the power off to it when its not running with a ss realy and the 12v plc

I have a outback system charge controller and inverter mx60 / fx2850 and dc power panel to SQ D QO 120v panel for the ac.

and 4 MF125UE-125 watt panels to charging the bank wired in series

A plc to do the time of day cycling of the pump.

I'm still working on the float switches and 2nd pump for the toilet from rain water tank to an elevated gravity tank to toilet.
RV water heater (limits the girls to 6 minuet showers)

RV pump from the cistern to cabin plumbing on 12 volts

tom

 

[tommu56]

I placed and pulled my pump 2 times because I had to lower it in to the water further and it is down 450ft.
I put 1/2" poly rope on it with a tee at the top of the pump with a tracer 8 hitched to the tee (the wimpy bracket on pump brolewith a pipe full of water and pump the first time I pulled it and use a rim mounted to my tractor tire over a snatch block off back hoe down the well
I have some one else walk the wire and pipe out up the lane to get rid of it
while i run the tractor / rope capstan search capstan and my tractor and picture of pulling the pump should come up..
tom

 

[tommu56]

Phils here is the link

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/build-yourself/136790-tractor-rim-capstan-winch.html

post 12

the rope got caught when I took this picture pulling the pump the 2nd time

tom

 

[Kays Supply]

When I worked on pumps we made a jumper from an old box so you could plug it in and set the lid to the side. You can then check the pump wires with an amprobe and tell exactly what the pump is doing. If it is getting off the start winding or staying in. You can check the start amps and the run amps. That is a way to know exactly what your pump is doing. Low amps, no water. High amps stuck / dragging.

 

[Kays Supply]

Be very, very carfull pulling the pump when on old PVC. One wrong move and all you hear is a big splash as it hits the bottom. Make you a block by putting two pieces of hardwood together and drill a hole right where the two meet. Then drill at 90 degrees and put bolts to hold them together. Clamp it under the fittings while you unscrew the section up in the air.

 

[Phils]

Phils here is the link

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/build-yourself/136790-tractor-rim-capstan-winch.html

post 12

the rope got caught when I took this picture pulling the pump the 2nd time

tom

Great photos, tom. I sold my Case backhoe years ago so that idea is out, for me. My PT doesn't have outriggers and it'd be scary to try and rig anything up with it. I'd sooner use a block and tackle (and I'm actually giving that some serious thought!). I don't know what the thing is that you set on the well casing that "pinches" and holds the pipe as you remove pipes and get another winch grip. I've looked on eBay but not knowing what it's called makes it hard to search.

My biggest fear: rope breaking, pump falling into the well. I may just pay to have it done and rest easier.

I've been using a couple of MX60s, and recently added panels and an FM60. The FM wasn't charging as good as the MX and Outback noticed a post I made on their forum, contacted me, and last week shipped me another unit with the newest firmware (no charge). Apparently using a Xantrex inverter messes with the programming on the FM60 unless it has that newest firmware.

I'm glad you like that pump!

Phil

 

[Phils]

Be very, very carfull pulling the pump when on old PVC. One wrong move and all you hear is a big splash as it hits the bottom. Make you a block by putting two pieces of hardwood together and drill a hole right where the two meet. Then drill at 90 degrees and put bolts to hold them together. Clamp it under the fittings while you unscrew the section up in the air.

And while I was typing a post, Kays Supply helps out on two problems!

Using jumpers to have the controller set aside.... DUHHHHH. And I'd have never thought of it. I have an inductive ammeter for my Fluke.

You saw my fear about losing the pump. I hadn't thought of MAKING one of those whatchacallits out of wood, just figured I'd have to buy one. And then the thought of still losing it all down the hole... scary.

I'm leaning toward hiring a pump company to make the change, if it comes to that.

Phil

 

[Phils]

Low amps, no water. High amps stuck / dragging.

Since I'm using a generator still for power, I notice it doesn't seem to be loading up at all. I normally pump 250 gallons every 4th day and it fully recovers in 4 more days. It's been two weeks since I last pumped so I gotta think there's water.

But this weekend I'll test some more.

In the meantime, I'm filling the cistern from a 150 gallon tank in my pickup. The water bill at the office doesn't even increase much (if any) for the amount I'm taking. My office, my water bill anyway.

Phil

 

[Kays Supply]

Wise choice on the easy way out. I have been involved in dropped pumps. Even the pros loose a few. The biggest thing is that sometimes you can't get a new on in if the old one is piled up in the hole. We had a scew type catcher to snag the wires and try to pull a dropped pump, I made one with grabber jaws and funnel to try to grab the pipe when it was a really heavy one. Some of the older ones years ago were on galvenized pile. 400' of that is HEAVY.

 

[tommu56]

Phils
My first pull the wimpy s hook pulled out of the pump and pump dropped
I still had the t handle on the pit less adapter holding the pipe

T handle and pitless and the polly pipe I took 2 chains about 3 ft long

Wrap the first one around the pipe 4 or 5 times and put a bolt back to the top chain with a nylon lock nut sorta like a noose then another single loop again with bolt and nylon lock nut
I hooked the top of this lower one to my engine hoist.

The upper one was rigged the same turns and hooked to the hook on the back of my hoe bucket.
I inched it foot by foot out of the well by lifting bucket the weight would come off the lower cinch and let pipe slide through when I would lower bucket for another bite it would put tension on loset cinch and it would hold pipe finish lowering bucket and lift again I think I repeated it 400 times to get the pipe out of the well

oh yea I have 180 or 200 ft of sch 120 sur-aline pvc pipe in the bottom of the well
and the cinches worked on this too

the cinches looked like a toughline hitches made with chain if you know what a toughline hitch is

I did un tape the wire from the pipe before running it through the cinches to keep from damaging it.

http://www.weatherford.com/weatherford/groups/public/documents/general/wft089592.pdf

tom

 

[tommu56]

Oh yea backwoods solar was cheaper for the pump than from my local grundfus supply house even with my discount for work.

and the guys there know their stuff
The local dealer had to look up the sq flex and said they never sold one and din'd know about the cu200 controler

Next time I get up there Ill take some pictures of the control panels

tom

 

[Phils]

Oh yea backwoods solar was cheaper for the pump than from my local grundfus supply house even with my discount for work.

and the guys there know their stuff
The local dealer had to look up the sq flex and said they never sold one and din'd know about the cu200 controler

Next time I get up there Ill take some pictures of the control panels

tom

Wow, tom! I KNEW TBN (via you in this case) wouldn't let me down!

The place I normally get my solar stuff (NAWS) said $1849 for the pump and I had to buy panels, couldn't use my inverter. I found another offgrid place (altersystems) that had a better price of $1772 but it's in CA and would have to add $150 more for sales tax which makes it even more. And I sent them in inquiry early yesterday about the inverter but no reply yet.

I've been to the Backwoods site but never bought from them... I'm VERY glad to hear you are happy with their knowledge and service. $1795 but no tax. And the lowest price on the CU200 of all three. And lower shipping.

My Xantrex inverter runs our jet pump so smoothly that I really was figuring it'd run the Grundfos with no problem. By contrast, using my old Heart Interface MSW on the previous jet pump you could hear the struggle.

I looked at the ShurAlign piping. My first pump had one continuous black poly pipe that we pulled a couple of times with a tractor and A-frame. Somewhere along the line it got changed to 10' sections of gray PVC. I only remember that because the last time the pump was pulled, every time a pipe was disconnected, that much water would splash out (I was helping). I had been considering going back to the one piece black poly but hadn't solicited opinions on that part yet. Pros and cons?

Since you used to do this work, what happens when you have a company pull the old, and install a new pump you are supplying? I used to be in auto repair and some of the rules changed with customer-supplied parts. KaysSupply makes some good points about having it done professionally.

Phil

 

[Phils]

Yes that is the pump I have because I am off grid with it I have a 2850 watt invertor to power it off 1820ah battery setup running it on 120v

tom

tom,

I'd been originally looking at the 6 SQF-2 but now I don't know why. It seems that the 3 SQF-2 may be a better choice for us and it appears that the price is the same on that series of helical rotor pumps.

Did you get the extended warranty that includes the lightening arrestor?

Phil

 

[tommu56]

Phil I am a one man band (not countin the wife daughter and 2 grand kids that i live with) I don't worry about service i do it all my self with their help ocasionly.
I just told the driller what I wanted he said he would do it and did it took him 3 weeks of pounding but he pulled out and said I got 20 gpm but that is another story that is why I ended up with cistern

I built my cabin 27 years ago with friends helping (they refer to it as my wooden tent) gas light frige and range and an out house 100ft too far away in the winter and 100 ft too close in the summer if you get my drift!

12 volt radio tv that use to get about 10 fuzzy analog channels now we get 6 good new pbs digital channels and no network stuff. (I'm not happy about the digital switch)

I added a 10x 20 ft mud room and bath room about 5 years ago after the well was drilled.

The solar came the year after the bathroom.

I use moistly 120v lights now (free fuel) in stead of the propane lights

I have about 100 different projects in the works at any one time not counting the wives help me do this (translated to do this for me)

And yes I did get the arrestor and warranty

and i have the 3 SQF-2

my battery's were cheaper from them too i had to go 50 miles to get them at a Trojan warehouse

Decka is 15 minuets from work and their prices weren't all that great and I couldn't find any reviews of their battery's good or bad Trojans were all good reviews 8 L16h's in series / paralleled at 12 volts

tom