The dozer search...

[GManBart]

I posted some of this over on the Heavy Equipment Forum, and I know a number of folks are on both sites, so I apologize if you've already read this, but I'm hoping for a different perspective here. If I listen to some of the folks over there I'll wind up with a new D10 that won't fit in my barn :laughing:

I'm back to looking for a small farm dozer again....had one, sold it to a buddy who said I could use it whenever I wanted, then he sold it. I have a number of projects that need to happen in phases, and it's probably going to take me a year or so to get everything done, so renting is out. I just cutting fence lines through light stuff (2-3" and I'll cut down anything larger), pushing a couple of thousand yards of dirt to reclaim a lot that had a house on it (we knocked it down), etc. I've been looking at stuff in the 15K pound range, but I'm 0 for 3 getting to decent, reasonably priced machines fast enough. One was a Deere 450C, the other was a Dresser TD8G, and the last one was a Cat D3.

A dealer a couple of hours from me has what looks to be a nice 1983 Cat D3b that's been repainted (yes, I know the risks there) and has a really nice undercarriage (they say 80% average, which looks reasonable from the pics) and estimate 5K hours on it. I know some folks don't like peddle steer, and some folks are really anti-dry clutches and brakes, but I don't think either is a major factor for weekend warrior use so long as I make sure to keep water out, and not let it sit for long without running it a bit.

A dealer a few miles away has a decent 1997 Dresser TD8H that they say has about a 50% UC, with the pins and bushings just turned, new sprockets, decent looking pads/grousers and reasonable paint for its age. The meter shows something over 6K hours, but I have no idea if it works or not. It looks appropriate for its age, and I'm guessing the paint is original, so I don't think there's a hidden story there.

I think either machine would do anything I need. The Cat is older, weighs 2K pounds less, has 15hp less, but has a better UC. The fact that it's older, means it's also simpler, and probably easier to fix if need be. Lastly, the CAT dealer is by far the closest to me if I need parts. The Dresser is 14 years newer, weighs more, has more power, but the UC isn't as good, but would probably be harder to work on, and it might take more effort to get parts if needed.

I'll add the links below, but I'm curious what everybody thinks. I'm thinking of visiting both and if both are decent machines, just let the sales guys know that whoever makes the better deal will get the sale....be polite about it, but try to get them to come off their prices (which tend to be high on the online listing sites anyway). Anybody run either of these machines?

I'm having issues getting pictures to show on Machinerytrader's site, but if you click on the dealer's name, it will take you to a separate listing, and the pics seem to work fine.

MachineryTrader.com | 1983 CAT D3B For Sale

MachineryTrader.com | 1997 DRESSER TD8H For Sale

 

[EddieWalker]

Before I would consider Dresser, I would make sure I could get parts for it. Nothing breaks down as often as a dozer. Personally, I started out with a Deere 450G and liked it for finish work, but hated it for clearing and moving debris. Just not enough power to really do anything with it. During summer when the soil is super dry and hard, the blade just slid over the top of it and no amount of angle with the tips of the blade would break through it. My neighbor had a guy out on his place clearing his fence line with a D4 that did OK, but he had rippers and for trees of any size, they brought in a 315 Cat excavator to take them out. Then used a full sized backhoe and a 80 hp Deere 4x4 tractor to either drag them or pull the trailer after the excavator loaded them.

When I bought mine, I wanted something with enough power to do most anything I wanted. I went with Case thinking they would have the parts for mine, but they don't. Case isn't great at supporting their older equipment. Once they stop making it, they don't even try to help you out any more. Good thing for scrap yards or my dozer would never run again. At 170 hp and 40,000 pounds, it's a good mid sized dozer that can take out good sized trees, push large piles and with an 8 way blade, do a fair job of grading.

If I was buying again, I would probably go with something a little smaller. I don't use it for clearing any more. I learned that the backhoe is faster and cleaner taking out trees. My pond is dug, so moving a lot of dirt isn't an issue any more either. Now it's just for shaping the land, spreading dirt piles and finish work. Smaller would be easier to handle and probably give me a nicer finish. Or not. Might just be me. I will never know, it's what I have and what I'll keep on using.

 

[moriboy]

I may have posted on your thread on the other site, if so I would've said take a look at the G series Jd's.
Lots of them out there, parts support should be good, and they are just nice little machines. I have a 650 which
seems to be about the right size for my ranch projects. Maybe a tad small for moving bigger brush piles.
Mine is pedal steer which is a first for me and I like it better than hand clutches.

 

[RedNeckRacin]

I'll vote for JD's parts network on the older dozers. Currently working on a 550 and have been able to get 95% of the parts we needed for it. The aftermarket helped out with the rest that didn't need to be machined. Bushings and what not did.

 

[GManBart]

Before I would consider Dresser, I would make sure I could get parts for it. Nothing breaks down as often as a dozer. Personally, I started out with a Deere 450G and liked it for finish work, but hated it for clearing and moving debris. Just not enough power to really do anything with it. During summer when the soil is super dry and hard, the blade just slid over the top of it and no amount of angle with the tips of the blade would break through it. My neighbor had a guy out on his place clearing his fence line with a D4 that did OK, but he had rippers and for trees of any size, they brought in a 315 Cat excavator to take them out. Then used a full sized backhoe and a 80 hp Deere 4x4 tractor to either drag them or pull the trailer after the excavator loaded them.

When I bought mine, I wanted something with enough power to do most anything I wanted. I went with Case thinking they would have the parts for mine, but they don't. Case isn't great at supporting their older equipment. Once they stop making it, they don't even try to help you out any more. Good thing for scrap yards or my dozer would never run again. At 170 hp and 40,000 pounds, it's a good mid sized dozer that can take out good sized trees, push large piles and with an 8 way blade, do a fair job of grading.

If I was buying again, I would probably go with something a little smaller. I don't use it for clearing any more. I learned that the backhoe is faster and cleaner taking out trees. My pond is dug, so moving a lot of dirt isn't an issue any more either. Now it's just for shaping the land, spreading dirt piles and finish work. Smaller would be easier to handle and probably give me a nicer finish. Or not. Might just be me. I will never know, it's what I have and what I'll keep on using.

Hey Eddie,

It seems that Dresser parts aren't too hard to find, at least on the newer machines if you go off the comments I've seen in a number of places. Still, I'm guessing the local CAT dealer probably has overall better parts support, and they're much closer.

I don't plan on tackling any large trees...I'll just cut those down and dig the root ball out with my backhoe, then toss it in the dump truck or dump trailer as necessary. Most of the dirt I have is already on site, in big piles. I'll move fill from the big piles to where I need it with the dump truck and partially spread dump it. So, most of the dirt work will really be true finish type work.

I'd love to go up a size or two, but after buying a backhoe, dump truck, dump trailer, and scissor lift in the past 2 years my equipment budget won't allow that without really looking at worn machines. It seems locally that the smaller machines sell pretty quickly if they're under $20K, and since I plan on selling it after I get the projects done, I'm trying to factor that in as well....even if I take a loss it will be far less than it would have been renting. Also, as wonderful and understanding as my wife is, if I bring home something that looks like a piece of junk she's going to tease me :laughing:

 

[GManBart]

I may have posted on your thread on the other site, if so I would've said take a look at the G series Jd's.
Lots of them out there, parts support should be good, and they are just nice little machines. I have a 650 which
seems to be about the right size for my ranch projects. Maybe a tad small for moving bigger brush piles.
Mine is pedal steer which is a first for me and I like it better than hand clutches.

I've looked hard for a 450G, and would have even been okay with a 450C, D or E, but the couple I've seen that were decent and not ridiculously priced sold quickly. I'm sure I can find one, but not close enough that hauling it here wouldn't be a major hassle, and expensive. I really need to stay under $20K, and pretty much any G series under that price is likely to have run out tracks.

 

[GManBart]

I'll vote for JD's parts network on the older dozers. Currently working on a 550 and have been able to get 95% of the parts we needed for it. The aftermarket helped out with the rest that didn't need to be machined. Bushings and what not did.

I've heard that other places as well. There have been a couple of 450 and 550s that I was interested in, but they all sold quickly.

There's a 550B listed on CL about 150mi from me, but the tracks look pretty tired (no adjustment left). I've also heard the 550s were sort of an orphan in the Deere line, and some had transmission issues that got expensive quickly....but I could be mistaken.

 

[Industrial Toys]

I've always had a thing for the JD 350s and 450s. But my reading seems to suggest that even the later wet ones arn't your best bet. The CASE 450 seems to be a better all round machine.

A guy I know bought aused JD 750 at auction and one of his first jobs was at my place. I think it blew every hose on there within the first month or so. Then a drive motor blew and it's been parked since. That was a few years ago! He actually bought another 750.

I don't know if I will ever get into the dozer money pit, but think if I did, I would try and find a machine where I knew the history and owner.

Plus, I would spend a little more. Buy the one where the other guy put a pile of money into it, that he won't get out, rather then you becoming that guy.

 

[GManBart]

I've always had a thing for the JD 350s and 450s. But my reading seems to suggest that even the later wet ones arn't your best bet. The CASE 450 seems to be a better all round machine.

A guy I know bought aused JD 750 at auction and one of his first jobs was at my place. I think it blew every hose on there within the first month or so. Then a drive motor blew and it's been parked since. That was a few years ago! He actually bought another 750.

I don't know if I will ever get into the dozer money pit, but think if I did, I would try and find a machine where I knew the history and owner.

Plus, I would spend a little more. Buy the one where the other guy put a pile of money into it, that he won't get out, rather then you becoming that guy.

The Case 450 is smaller than a Deere 450, and in large part, they don't seem to be favored. I guess it's just like anything else...some folks love them, some folks hate them. The earlier ones with both brake pedals and levers for each track are on the awkward side according to many of the comments I've seen. All of them that I've seen around here stay on the market for ages before they sell, and that isn't the case with CAT, Deere or Dressers in the same size range. Since I plan to only keep the dozer for a year or so I want to get something that will be easier to sell.

I'd love to wait around to find a machine with a known history, but that's going to take a lot of luck. If I was going to keep it forever I'd approach this differently, but this is going to be a cash deal that I have to keep reasonable. I've spent over $60K on equipment in the last 12-18mos so I really need to keep this under $20K. The scary part is I've spent a lot more than that on my barn/shop...yikes. My wife is very understanding, but I don't want to test her limits! My hope is to buy something that will let me set aside a couple grand in the repair fund right off the bat.

I totally agree that it makes sense to buy as good of a machine as possible, and let the other guy take the depreciation. That's part of what makes me interested in the Cat D3B...it looks clean, and the UC looks really good. If the engine runs fine and the transmission seems solid it seems like the most likely gotchas are covered (although anything can happen at any time).

 

[Industrial Toys]

I always try and buy things that I "Think" I can sell without too much difficulty. But I have learned my lessons as well, the hard way.

That gives me hope for a JD 450 someday. A later wet clutch one, but I am now a little confused about all I have read.

A friend and neighbour bought a new Dresser trim dozer some years ago. I had never even heard of them and thought, WHY? I guess, they are actually made by some respectable company, but forget who. I never did ask this guy, how the machine was, after all these years.

My friend with the 750s, really likes his little Komatsu with rubber tracks.

My dream would be to find a JD 450 at an estate sale. One where you can see how the guy cared for his stuff. In truth though, around here with all the stoney ground, an excavator is king.

 

[City Farmer]

My Case 350 isn't in the same league as the bigger dozers you guys have but it's a runner. It won't push the big trees over or pop out the big stumps. But, it cuts right through the small trees less than 3" and some of the bigger ones when it's wet. For cutting ditches/driveways, pushing dirt/gravel and general farm work it gets the job done in a hurry. I'm not sure how many yards a full overflowing blade is but it pushes it with no problem. Unlike you guys down south, in SE Michigan we never have to worry about the ground turning into hard pan. Its been so wet these last few months that every creek and pond is over flowing.

 

[EddieWalker]

Something that's been mentioned a few times that might be overlooked when out looking at dozers is how does it steer. The Deere 450G that I ran for a little while was lever steer. It was a total pain in the but to work the steering and the blade. It didn't take long to really dislike running it. My Case 1550 is pedal steer, which leaves my hands free to control the speed in either direction with my left hand, and the blade with my right hand. I have to use my right heal to change the angle of the blade, but that's pretty quick and easy once you get used to it.

When I first started looking, I was bargain hunting and looked at quite a few farm dozers. Every one of them was junk, even worse, they usually did something to hide a problem, or wouldn't even let me test drive it saying there was some simple, cheap thing that needed to be replaced, but they didn't have the time to do it. I heard that so often that I realized it was what they said when they knew something really bad was wrong with it and it was extremely expensive to fix.

I also looked at the auctions, but from talking to guys there, it was a real challenge to figure out the deals and the scams. Seems that if you close off a cylinder or two, it will fire right up, wont smoke and sound fantastic. They put a BB in the end of the fuel line at the injector. Other scams are adding sawdust to the oil to stop leaks and the most common, new paint to hide everything else.

The used dealers turned out to be where I found the best deals. They sold low hour rental units for the best prices. Machinery Trader, Equipment Trader Online, and Craigslist all had lots of dealers on there. They never post everything they have, but it was a great source to find out where they where and go look at what was in their yard.

Be sure to get them to deliver it for free, that's an easy bargaining chip and one that's expected, but never offered until you make it part of the deal.

 

[RedNeckRacin]

I've heard that other places as well. There have been a couple of 450 and 550s that I was interested in, but they all sold quickly.

There's a 550B listed on CL about 150mi from me, but the tracks look pretty tired (no adjustment left). I've also heard the 550s were sort of an orphan in the Deere line, and some had transmission issues that got expensive quickly....but I could be mistaken.

I think deere got a bad rap on the transmissions. They are a power shift and not meant to be clutched. I have been running a 450b track loader and power shift it through all ranges and only clutch when i want to change gears. The 550 were all wet clutch IIRC so thats a plus. The smaller case dozers were unique with the steering but they weren't to bad to get onto. I used to run one a little bit when I was a young buck!

 

[moriboy]

I've heard that other places as well. There have been a couple of 450 and 550s that I was interested in, but they all sold quickly. There's a 550B listed on CL about 150mi from me, but the tracks look pretty tired (no adjustment left). I've also heard the 550s were sort of an orphan in the Deere line, and some had transmission issues that got expensive quickly....but I could be mistaken.

You are correct about the 550,550A,550B series. Great machines, but the transmissions are the weak point and can be very expensive to fix.

 

[TSO]

I've talked with some local guys that really like their Komstsu machines, and claim they are very reliable. I still may end up with a smaller D21/31 someday when everything else is paid for, just to see how it goes.

Have you looked into them at all?

 

[GManBart]

I always try and buy things that I "Think" I can sell without too much difficulty. But I have learned my lessons as well, the hard way.

That gives me hope for a JD 450 someday. A later wet clutch one, but I am now a little confused about all I have read.

A friend and neighbour bought a new Dresser trim dozer some years ago. I had never even heard of them and thought, WHY? I guess, they are actually made by some respectable company, but forget who. I never did ask this guy, how the machine was, after all these years.

My friend with the 750s, really likes his little Komatsu with rubber tracks.

My dream would be to find a JD 450 at an estate sale. One where you can see how the guy cared for his stuff. In truth though, around here with all the stoney ground, an excavator is king.

Dresser dozers were really made by International. Dresser bought that part of their business, and little changed other than the name on the side. Later Komatsu bought the whole operation, specifically for the smaller dozers (as I've been told). Eventually Dressta bought them out, and they're still making updated versions of the TD7 and TD8 (can't recall the new numbers they use). Some folks swear that the TD7/8 was the best of the bunch in that size category, but that will always be a point people will argue.

I've had a line on a couple of 450s and decent ones seem to sell fast, so you're not alone!

 

[EddieWalker]

I thought Dresta was bought out by Fiat, who also owns Case and New Holland? Dresser is owned by Intersoll Rand, who also recently purchased American Standard

 

[GManBart]

I've talked with some local guys that really like their Komstsu machines, and claim they are very reliable. I still may end up with a smaller D21/31 someday when everything else is paid for, just to see how it goes.

Have you looked into them at all?

I have, but there's really only been one in the area of the size I was looking for, and they don't seem to command the attention the other brands do. If I was keeping it for a long time, I probably would have gone and looked at it.

 

[GManBart]

I thought Dresta was bought out by Fiat, who also owns Case and New Holland? Dresser is owned by Intersoll Rand, who also recently purchased American Standard

That could definitely be true...I haven't tried to keep track. I thought Dressta bought the dozer line from Dresser, and Dresser continued making other stuff, but that's just an impression I have which could be wrong. Last I knew at least two of the current Dressta machines were the modern versions of the TD7 and TD8...I think they're all made in Poland.

 

[GManBart]

So, I went and looked at the CAT today....and it's being delivered next week. I checked it over pretty well before the mechanic even came out to give me the keys, and then ran it for a full hour pushing dirt. One thing I liked was that the mechanic asked if I need any help, started the engine, got back on his UTV and said "have fun" and rode away.

It started easily (I checked and it was dead cold when I got there), ran very smoothly, and didn't smoke. Once up to temperature it had some blow by through the breather, but it wasn't excessive, and that engine is known for having some blow by even when fairly new (only has two rings on the piston). When I ran it into the big pile of dirt it would easily spin both tracks without a problem and it had no trouble pushing a full blade. The steering was good in both directions, the brakes would lock up the tracks easily, and the transmission was solid in all three gears. I didn't find any cracks or welds in the frame, etc, and the hydraulics were all good with the exception of a leaking fitting that they're going to replace (it started leaking while I was running it). After an hour I shut it down, and restarted it hot...no problem. I then went around again looking for leaks/problems, and only found the small leak on one of the blade hoses.

I got them down to the number I had in mind when I got there, and almost got free delivery until they found out it was 180 miles! I've talked with a couple of local equipment haulers, and they quoted me $400-500 for a similar distance. The dealer agreed to split it, so I'm paying $250 to get it hauled here. The sales guy twice mentioned that before they deliver a machine they put it in the shop and go through it from top to bottom....check all the fluids again, make sure the clutches and brakes are adjusted properly etc...he was pretty adamant that they try to deliver machines that are really ready to go to work. I guess I'll find out soon enough!

Anyway, I'll post pics when it gets delivered