The one animal I would eradicate from the planet...

[deserteagle71]

I maintain that most if not all problems people experience can be traced to over population or lawyers.

Agree 100%. I'm of the opinion that if earth's population was reduced by 75%, the remaining 25% wouldn't need such a high percentage of lawyers in their midst.

 

[the old grind]

I see Sig saying that max number of births might could be secondary to max number of people raised by a society if we are to truly progress. I'm not trying take a moral stand here but IMO when I hear 'pro choice' I imagine just that, not 'pro abortion' as if everything is 'black or white' ...

btw, Apologies for suggesting that civilization got anywhere before 0 AD, Nostradamus, Leni Riefenstahl, Mikhail Kalatozov, Douglas MacArthur, Marshall McLuhan, Vance Packard, George Carlin, Kim Kardashian ...

 

[Jchonline]

Agree 100%. I'm of the opinion that if earth's population was reduced by 75%, the remaining 25% wouldn't need such a high percentage of lawyers in their midst.

Save the cats!

 

[Sigarms]

It's a valid question, but really irrelevant to the initial premise. ****** had an answer; euthanize the mentally and physically impaired, which he did, and this solution was also applied to racial and ethnic undesirables.

And yet even in your own state, it took Skinner vs Oklahoma to stop the slippery slope your own state government was doing BEFORE ****** started doing what he was doing.

At least Oklahoma only looked at prison inmates (something that can be more easily justifiable to more IMO), NC left their own sterilization program up to social workers.

 

[Sigarms]

I see Sig saying that max number of births might could be secondary to max number of people raised by a society if we are to truly progress..

Kind of, sort of, maybe, but that would be the progression

Ultimately what I'm saying is we are supposedly the smarted species on this planet, yet people do stupid ***** like murder and have children when they aren't ready to have children (and care for them in a family environment) for the last 2,000 years.

I understand why animals propagate, but sometimes I have no clue why some humans do.

Locally, we had our first shooting death in a high school this past week. I have little doubt this event came directly from a lack of family environment from both the perps AND victims family.

 

[2LaneCruzer]

And yet even in your own state, it took Skinner vs Oklahoma to stop the slippery slope your own state government was doing BEFORE ****** started doing what he was doing.

At least Oklahoma only looked at prison inmates (something that can be more easily justifiable to more IMO), NC left their own sterilization program up to social workers.

Actually, Skinner was decided in 1942, at least a few years after ******, who came to power in 1932. Here again, morally, I have no problem with compulsory sterilization of certain criminal acts, like ****** abuse of children; legally is another issue; you can lose all of your civil rights, and even your life if your offense is bad enough, so there is a legal argument for it, if you can convince the Supreme Court.
As a side note, in Oklahoma at one time, you could only have one child at state/county expense; the next one required sterilization. In fact, when I was in grade school, one of my friends' mother was sterilized after her sister was born.

 

[Sigarms]

Actually, Skinner was decided in 1942, at least a few years after ******, who came to power in 1932.

My line of thinking was that ****** didn't execute his plan until he could guise it with military conquest. Oklahomas criminal sterilzation act was enacted 4 years prior to Germany's first invastion.

Like yourself, I wouldn't have qualms about compulsory sterilization for certain criminal acts, but what scares me more is the complicity you'd give your own government the power to do so.

Heck, North Carolina had the "Human Better League" founded in 1947 by a bunch of rich people promoting sterilization. Even doctors got on board with the program.

That said, if you can't actually afford to raise children, what's wrong with sterilizing people so they won't have that issue to deal with as they did in Oklahoma?

 

[2LaneCruzer]

The euthanization of the mentally ill and handicapped actually began in 1939 and ended in 1941, about the time he invaded Russia.

Sterilization is certainly a way to prevent unwanted childbirth; the problem is, as you suggest, the government forcing the sterilization on someone who is not a criminal. Plus, when you dehumanize a race or even a fetus, then you can justify abortion or even the Holocaust.
Not saying that it should be illegal, but for me, even a mother aborting a fetus because it is unwanted is morally wrong. Another thing that bothers me is that although it is not a governmental act, it is, in effect government sanctioned.

 

[4570Man]

That said, if you can't actually afford to raise children, what's wrong with sterilizing people so they won't have that issue to deal with as they did in Oklahoma?

It seems that the people that can’t afford to take care of them sit around and have a whole pile of kids and then the cycle repeats itself. Sterilization wasn’t a bad option IMO.

 

[Sigarms]

It seems that the people that can’t afford to take care of them sit around and have a whole pile of kids and then the cycle repeats itself. Sterilization wasn’t a bad option IMO.

I don't disagree with you, however I do disagree with giving the state that kind of power.

Generally state government agencies start out for a legitimate reason, but when given power, that power tends to grow, and then that power tends to get abused in areas where it wasn't intended for.

Being that we are apparently the most intellectual species on our planet, you would think common sense would tell you that if you don't have the time, financial resources or even the willingness to make at least 18 year commitment to have a child, you would take precautions to ensure you won't become pregnant to begin with.

The above is where I give animals a free pass. I don't for humans.

People make mistakes, I get it. The problem is it takes two to tango and you darn well would think people would learn from their first mistake.

The irony is, my dad was one of 11 and my mom one of 12. The impression I got from my mother and father was the line of reasoning back then was the more kids, the more money they brought into the family when they could start work (we're not talking at age 16 either). My dad was helping at age 7 in the family bootlegging mine to heat the house.

I'd like to think I got my work eithic from both my father and mother, who in turn got it from their parents. In that area, I consider myself blessed. I not certain what kids learn when they figure out they are just more money into their parents pocket book.

 

[Frankenkubota]

Kind of, sort of, maybe, but that would be the progression

Ultimately what I'm saying is we are supposedly the smarted species on this planet, yet people do stupid ***** like murder and have children when they aren't ready to have children (and care for them in a family environment) for the last 2,000 years.

I understand why animals propagate, but sometimes I have no clue why some humans do.

Locally, we had our first shooting death in a high school this past week. I have little doubt this event came directly from a lack of family environment from both the perps AND victims family.

shootings in schools by young folks is on the news pretty much every day here. i don't pay attention so it may be the same shooting? Doubt it.

 

[Frankenkubota]

I don't disagree with you, however I do disagree with giving the state that kind of power.

Generally state government agencies start out for a legitimate reason, but when given power, that power tends to grow, and then that power tends to get abused in areas where it wasn't intended for.

Being that we are apparently the most intellectual species on our planet, you would think common sense would tell you that if you don't have the time, financial resources or even the willingness to make at least 18 year commitment to have a child, you would take precautions to ensure you won't become pregnant to begin with.

The above is where I give animals a free pass. I don't for humans.

People make mistakes, I get it. The problem is it takes two to tango and you darn well would think people would learn from their first mistake.

The irony is, my dad was one of 11 and my mom one of 12. The impression I got from my mother and father was the line of reasoning back then was the more kids, the more money they brought into the family when they could start work (we're not talking at age 16 either). My dad was helping at age 7 in the family bootlegging mine to heat the house.

I'd like to think I got my work eithic from both my father and mother, who in turn got it from their parents. In that area, I consider myself blessed. I not certain what kids learn when they figure out they are just more money into their parents pocket book.

you use the word parents, plural. i'm pretty sure about 1/2 the kids are raised in single parent households.

I believe, if we want things to go back to "normal", a child needs a dad and a mom. Our culture was built on that idea. It's not that way now and i don't believe it's going to return to the old "normal".

We have a new normal.

When we pay women to have children out of wedlock and then keep paying them, we get what we deserve.

The kids are the real victims, then the culture.

 

[lman]

The new normal is two dads or two moms with adopted children. I'm still trying to get my head around that.

 

[Frankenkubota]

The new normal is two dads or two moms with adopted children. I'm still trying to get my head around that.

yea, i've come to the conclusion that normal is what you grow up with, including all the propaganda. The best example is, Mr Smith goes to washington.

each new generations values change so their normal is a bit different than my normal.....then another generation and another ....by then, everything's very different to me, we have a new normal. The modern day speed of change, the compression of time, changes happen much faster.

i think that's why old guys tend to get curmudgeonly? we have been through a lot of changes and we tend to pay attention. It's just not normal!

 

[Jstpssng]

The new normal is two dads or two moms with adopted children. I'm still trying to get my head around that.

But they are still husband and wife.

Years ago in my "enlightened" days I met two women who were deathly afraid of men... I' never did figure out WTF I was doing there. Yet they were raising a son in his early teens. The only thing I remember from that encounter was that he was one messed up kid, being raised by people who were afraid of his gender. For a long time I wondered what became of him, most likely he ended up in prison or dead.

 

[Sigarms]

The new normal is two dads or two moms with adopted children. I'm still trying to get my head around that.

Just because one is ********** does not make one a bad parent

The reality is every state has numerous children within the state who are in foster care whose biological parents have had their parental rights terminated by the state for good reason (these are heterosexual parents who lost their children mind you), and at the end of the day, if a couple (no matter what ****** preference) would like to adopt, as long as they meet the state qualifications to adopt, the state can and probably will adopt them to "gay" parents.

We adopted a dog out years ago to a lesbian couple. In many ways after getting to know them personally, they were a better fit for the dog than some other applicants in both my wifes and I opinion.

News flash, just because your gay, does not make you a pedophile.

 

[Sigarms]

But they are still husband and wife.

Years ago in my "enlightened" days I met two women who were deathly afraid of men... I' never did figure out WTF I was doing there. Yet they were raising a son in his early teens. The only thing I remember from that encounter was that he was one messed up kid, being raised by people who were afraid of his gender. For a long time I wondered what became of him, most likely he ended up in prison or dead.

Likewise, after doing training by the state for foster care, we met some gay people fostering children. Those "parents" had their act together more than some biological parents we knew in the court system.

The lesbian couple we adopted the dog out to were not afraid of men, yet the love they showed toward each other (one had a medial condition) was more than what we had seen in some heterosexual homes for children.

 

[Sigarms]

you use the word parents, plural. i'm pretty sure about 1/2 the kids are raised in single parent households.

Wasn't until my late 30's I figured out my aunt was really my cousin.

The "hush hush" in the family that my aunt got married to a wife beater in the late 30's. My grandfather and uncles went to my aunts house when she had a baby, and beat the "husband" pretty close to death, ironcically enough, no charges were ever pressed, and the baby was brought home to be raised in the family (my dad being young, always thought of her as his sister until he got older).

Point being, all the crap going on now per cheating and spousal abuse happened a centrury ago, but most women put up with it because that was their place in society.

How many girls in the 40's and 50's "went away" because they were pregnat and out of wedlock?

 

[SPYDERLK]

I'm no bleeding heart anything... but to shoot any animal for target practice is below sub human and disgusting; to say it with pride is revolting. And if I get banned or a vacation for saying it... so be it.

I shot flies lit on laundry towels with my BB gun. Mom didnt like it.

 

[4570Man]

I don't disagree with you, however I do disagree with giving the state that kind of power.

Generally state government agencies start out for a legitimate reason, but when given power, that power tends to grow, and then that power tends to get abused in areas where it wasn't intended for.

Being that we are apparently the most intellectual species on our planet, you would think common sense would tell you that if you don't have the time, financial resources or even the willingness to make at least 18 year commitment to have a child, you would take precautions to ensure you won't become pregnant to begin with.

The above is where I give animals a free pass. I don't for humans.

People make mistakes, I get it. The problem is it takes two to tango and you darn well would think people would learn from their first mistake.

The irony is, my dad was one of 11 and my mom one of 12. The impression I got from my mother and father was the line of reasoning back then was the more kids, the more money they brought into the family when they could start work (we're not talking at age 16 either). My dad was helping at age 7 in the family bootlegging mine to heat the house.

I'd like to think I got my work eithic from both my father and mother, who in turn got it from their parents. In that area, I consider myself blessed. I not certain what kids learn when they figure out they are just more money into their parents pocket book.

I don’t disagree with not giving the state that power but they already have it. And clearly humans don’t have the ability to decide not to have kids if they can’t take care of them.