Thinking of a top and tilt setup

[J_J]

jim_wilson ,

Just what kind of implement are you thinking for the front.

A simple diverter/selector valve will provide some hyd, using the curl hydraulics.

You could run a separate joystick for front implements, using the PB from the loader valve and connect all valves in series.

 

[jim_wilson]

jim_wilson ,

Just what kind of implement are you thinking for the front.

A simple diverter/selector valve will provide some hyd, using the curl hydraulics.

You could run a separate joystick for front implements, using the PB from the loader valve and connect all valves in series.

Well - ultimately the answer is: whatever I can think of. But the two things initially I have plans for are a grapple and possibly a cement mixer.

What you described is pretty much along the same lines as what I was thinking.

To plumb the hydraulics in for both what I'm thinking for the rear - and the front here's what I'm thinking, bear in mind that the reason why I want to do it this way - is that I want the additional front hydraulics to be "active" at the same time the normal loader hydraulics are active :

- currently there is a feed to the backhoe from the PB port on the loader valve - and the return from the backhoe goes directly to the 3pt valve block. When there is no backhoe - these ports are jumpered together to feed the 3pt.

- to feed the front hydraulics - I would put a diverter/selector valve of some sort into that line coming from the PB port on the loader block. I think all I really need is a simple valve with one IN (from PB on the loader valve) and two selectable pressure ports one to the backhoe feed , the other to the additional front hydraulics . I actually have a diverter valve at home I got from Surplus Center - but it's setup like a typical diverter valve meant for use to divert existing loader hydraulics : It has multiple ports for all the cylinder feeds. I suppose I could just use the existing valve and plug off the unused ports - but before I do that I'll look and see if there is anything available that more precisely fits what I'm trying to do.

- realize that I'm likely going to have to get some custom hard lines made or custom hoses made to put this all together. I'm looking into that now.

So then I would run the pressure feed from the diverter/PB on the loader block forward to the left side of the tractor . There is space underneath the operator station for me to mount some valves. What I would like to do - is have a foot pedal to operate a grapple , then a cable operated joystick that operates two more valves for other functions - and lastly a motor spool operated either by a electric solenoid - or just a handle of some form.

All of these would be fed up to the front of loader the same way the existing hydraulics are fed to the cylinders on the FEL - thru hard lines under the loader arm. This time on the left side (all of the existing hydraulics are on the right side) . I think I can get a pretty clean install by doing this. I already have a cable operated joystick with a switch in it - I'd use the switch to operate the diverter valve and activate the secondary FEL hydraulics when I needed them. The motor spool would be used to spin the cement mixer I was talking about - what I want to do is get one of the Cosmo 3pt mixers - and find an appropriate hydraulic motor to power it - and make it so the the hydraulic motor attaches to the PTO shaft on the mixer for use on the FEL - or - the mixer can still be used on the rear 3pt. Somewhere here on TBN there's a thread from a guy who converted his Cosmo mixer to run on a hydraulic motor - but he made it dedicated. I don't want to do that. I think the simplest way is to just get the right adapter and make the hydraulic motor removable from the mixer - and just have it feed the existing PTO connection.

Front hydraulics:
foot pedal operated valve = operating grapple
motor spool = operating cement mixer when installed
joystick on two spools = operating other functions - maybe side shift , maybe a tilt adapter like the stuff you can get for skid steers - not sure yet. I consider this to be "future proofing" I'd rather add it now in case I want it later - than have to rip the whole install apart and add it later when I needed it.

I'm trying to come up with a comprehensive plan so I can execute and get the work done. I'm just trying to make the pieces all fit together and make sure I'm not missing anything.

My outstanding question of the moment is - can I aggregate OUT ports into like a single block - that then feeds back to the tank? Should I worry about back pressure or any such thing? There's an OUT port that jumps from the loader valve block over to what I assume is the tank ( pumpkin under the seat - the fill port for the hydro is on this assembly) - what I'm thinking is that I get some sort of "block" feed this to the port that the existing OUT hose coming from the loader valve goes to - and then put the OUT from the loader valve - and the OUT from the additional front hydraulics I'm thinking of - into this block. Other than doing something like this - I'm not sure how I'd return OUT from the additional front hydraulics - back to the tank ( I don't think I need PB on the front hydraulics - there would just be an OUT)

 

[MtnViewRanch]

If you use diverters, a lot of these problems go away. Honestly, there really is no reason to think that you need to do all these hydraulic functions at the exact same moment. The tractor doesn't have the hydraulic flow to do multiple functions at the same time with ANY speed anyway. With electric diverters, you can switch functions as fast as you can move your thumb. This can all be done with just using your loader control valve.

Something to think about.

 

[aczlan]

My outstanding question of the moment is - can I aggregate OUT ports into like a single block - that then feeds back to the tank? Should I worry about back pressure or any such thing? There's an OUT port that jumps from the loader valve block over to what I assume is the tank ( pumpkin under the seat - the fill port for the hydro is on this assembly) - what I'm thinking is that I get some sort of "block" feed this to the port that the existing OUT hose coming from the loader valve goes to - and then put the OUT from the loader valve - and the OUT from the additional front hydraulics I'm thinking of - into this block. Other than doing something like this - I'm not sure how I'd return OUT from the additional front hydraulics - back to the tank ( I don't think I need PB on the front hydraulics - there would just be an OUT)

Take a look at this PDF: http://www.wrlonginc.com/Hyd DO3B Flow Diagram.pdf it shows how WRLong recommends hooking up their valves.
With an open center system, EVERYTHING should be in series and EVERYTHING will work, but things closer to the pump have priority.
So, your flow is Pump > Loader Valve > Grapple/Mixer Valve > Backhoe Valve > Tank.
When you are actually moving the loader, the grapple or mixer will slow down or stop depending on how much fluid is being used.

Aaron Z

 

[jim_wilson]

Take a look at this PDF: http://www.wrlonginc.com/Hyd DO3B Flow Diagram.pdf it shows how WRLong recommends hooking up their valves.
With an open center system, EVERYTHING should be in series and EVERYTHING will work, but things closer to the pump have priority.
So, your flow is Pump > Loader Valve > Grapple/Mixer Valve > Backhoe Valve > Tank.
When you are actually moving the loader, the grapple or mixer will slow down or stop depending on how much fluid is being used.

Aaron Z

I'm not sure that answers the question I had though.

Ok - so if I was to stick with my original idea - and have a separate block of valves for additional implements on the FEL - that should be an open center setup (based on what I'm reading) - so that return from that 2nd set of valves - goes back to the tank.

The factor loader valve has a PB port (which goes to the backhoe - or 3pt -depending) - but it also has an "OUT" port - which I assume is for pressure relief.

I can only find one available port that returns fluid to the tank - hence my question: can I feed both the open center return from the 2nd set of valves for the FEL implements - to the same place as the "OUT" port coming from the loader valve ? - or will that cause some sort of backpressure issues (on either the loader valve or the added valves) .

If there were issues with backpressure - can that be solved with some sort of backflow preventer?

 

[J_J]

Just connect the valves in series, and tee the OUT hoses.

You are going to have back pressure if a down stream valves goes into relief.

The PB ports from each valve should feed the IN port of the next valve.

You can add as many valves as you like, matching the GPM flow of the pump.

A diverter/selector valve like this would work te grapple.

Surplus Center - 12 VDC 13.2 GPM SAE 8 DOUBLE SELECTOR VALVE

You might also think what kind of spools you want on the additional valves, like float, detent. motor spool, etc.

 

[IvanS]

As a less expensive alternative to JJ's suggestion for a diverter valve, take a look at this one - Details Stackable Solenoid Operated Circuit Selector Valve | Type SAE 8 SELECTOR VALVE SOL OPT SAE 8 220-934

This is the one I installed on my B3300SU ($110) with a foot activated switch from Amazon for the grapple - less than $10 delivered for the switch for a combined cost of $120. I'll get some pictures of how I mounted it this weekend if you would like. I found a very secluded spot for it, but it was a pain to plumb.

 

[Leejohn]

Yes I would like to see the pictures also.

 

[IvanS]

Yes I would like to see the pictures also.

Here are some pictures of where I mounted my diverter valve, it's behind the front tube of the loader mount. I made a right angle bracket and used the bolts that hold the loader mount and back brace together. It's very tight in that space, but it's pretty well protected as well. I hope the pictures make sense - it's very tight and compact in there - so hard to get a picture. I ran the supply lines for dump/curl to the diverter directly from the quick disconnects via some new 18" long hoses. The original dump/curl hoses connect to the diverter and the new hoses for the grapple are secured to the inside of the loader arm. This eliminates the ability to remove the loader assembly but I don't care because I can drop the grapple or bucket from the arms in 2 minutes using the Kubota quick attach feature.

 

[jim_wilson]

Here are some pictures of where I mounted my diverter valve, it's behind the front tube of the loader mount. I made a right angel bracket and used the bolts that hold the loader mount and back brace together. It's very tight in that space, but it's pretty well protected as well. I hope the pictures make sense - it's very tight and compact in there - so hard to get a picture. I ran the supply lines for dump/curl to the diverter directly from the quick disconnects via some new 18" long hoses. The original dump/curl hoses connect to the diverter and the new hoses for the grapple are secured to the inside of the loader arm. This eliminates the ability to remove the loader assembly but I don't care because I can drop the grapple or bucket from the arms in 2 minutes using the Kubota quick attach feature.


https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-...uI/AAAAAAAAAG8/GLUZKksDlCA/s1108/SNB16466.JPG
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-...-I/AAAAAAAAAHI/BuBXguYV5IQ/s1108/SNB16469.JPG
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-...BI/AAAAAAAAAHQ/rG3XutIk7Ko/s1108/SNB16472.JPG

Nice setup. Looks like it came out nice and clean. I'm still looking to see if the components are available to put together the setup I've been thinking of. The missing piece I'm looking for at the moment is a simple diverter valve that will take one output and allow me to choose between two outputs. If I can't find that - I'll likely just use some type of diverter valve that has multiple input/outputs - and just block off the ones I'm not using.

 

[J_J]

Surplus Center - 1/2" NPT 20 GPM DOUBLE SELECTOR VALVE

Surplus Center - 12 VDC 13.2 GPM SAE 8 DOUBLE SELECTOR VALVE

Surplus Center - 1/2" NPT 20 GPM PRINCE SELECTOR VALVE

 

[jim_wilson]

Surplus Center - 12 VDC 13.2 GPM SAE 8 DOUBLE SELECTOR VALVE

I looked at the manual valves - for the sake of being able to "hide" the valve somewhere - I was hoping to stick with an electrically actuated valve of some sort.

I actually already have the valve in the link above: bought it last year while I was trying to think out exactly what I wanted to do. I figured I could use that valve if I couldn't find one that simply switched between two circuits, by just plugging half of the ports.

Either that - or I will just use the valve to swap the PB side - and the "Out" side.
(here's the schematic for the valve plumbing: http://www.surpluscenter.com/Instruct/I9-7852.pdf )

PB feed from loader valve block --- > "P1" in port on Surplus center valve

OUT - from side of oil reservoir case ---> "P2" port on Surplus center valve


Non-energized position on SplsCtr valve:

C1 port on SplsCtr valve ---> PB to backhoe / 3pt (P1 goes to C1)

C4 port on SplsCtr valve ---> OUT to P2 port - to oil reservoir (C4 goes to P2)



energize SplsCtr valve to activate the additional front hydraulics:

C2 port ---> PB to additional front hydraulics (P1 goes to C2)

C3 port ---> OUT (return) from additional front hydraulics (C3 goes to P2)


There should be no problems switching the "out" ports right? Would switching the out ports be a bad idea - could there be a potential for pressure spikes or something if the valves didn't have a dedicated out back to the tank?

 

[J_J]

I am not sure why you want to use an additional valve to switch fluid flow.

If you have all valves in series, there is no need for the diverter valve in your situation.

Your flow should be something like this.

Pump , FEL, BH, remotes if you have them or 3pt and tank.

If the BH is connected, you use the loader valve when you have to, or, you use the BH, probably never using both at the same time.

Should you disconnect the BH. then loop a hose from the PB to the remotes or 3pt.

The FEL will have priority over any other valve, and is the master relief for the hyd system.

 

[jim_wilson]

I am not sure why you want to use an additional valve to switch fluid flow.

If you have all valves in series, there is no need for the diverter valve in your situation.

Your flow should be something like this.

Pump , FEL, BH, remotes if you have them or 3pt and tank.

If the BH is connected, you use the loader valve when you have to, or, you use the BH, probably never using both at the same time.

Should you disconnect the BH. then loop a hose from the PB to the remotes or 3pt.

The FEL will have priority over any other valve, and is the master relief for the hyd system.

I might be missing something - because I'm not fully versed on this hydraulic stuff - but:

I believe I have to divert flow.

The FEL is fed from the loader valve block - which has a power beyond port.

That power beyond port goes to the rear of the tractor - to the QD for feeding the backhoe. The other QD on the rear of the tractor - goes directly to the 3pt valve block. The manual shows the 3pt being fed directly from the pump in the case of a tractor with no FEL, being fed directly from the loader valve block in the case of FEL but no backhoe - or lastly (as in the case of my tractor which has the backhoe setup) - being fed from the "return" pipe coming from the backhoe. When the backhoe is not attached - the PB is just looped into the pipe going to the 3pt block.

There is no return piping coming from the 3pt valve block - I believe it dumps internally.

So: I'm not sure how I would get fluid up to the remotes without using a diverter. I suppose I could just plumb another quick connect to the rear of the tractor and swap the hose from the line going to the 3pt - to a line going to the additional front remotes , but I would like to avoid that because it would involve shutting the tractor down - swapping the hose - and the starting the tractor up - to go from using the 3pt or the backhoe - to using the additional front hydraulics.

I have often gone back and forth between using the backhoe - to using the FEL while working. As a matter of convenience I would like to be able to just flip a switch.

I think I understand what you mean about having the valves in series - and I might be missing something - but I don't see how I can put the additional front valves in series - when the end of the line is the 3pt - which appears to dump internally back into the reservoir.

I suppose I could route the flow from the PB forward first - to the additional valves - then route the PB from that back to the backhoe, but I would like to avoid that because it would mean running 3 lines instead of two to the front of the tractor (PB to, PB from, and out) - and it would also put the backhoe and 3pt at the end of a long circuit - which I've got to believe might affect their performance.

 

[aczlan]

So: I'm not sure how I would get fluid up to the remotes without using a diverter. I suppose I could just plumb another quick connect to the rear of the tractor and swap the hose from the line going to the 3pt - to a line going to the additional front remotes , but I would like to avoid that because it would involve shutting the tractor down - swapping the hose - and the starting the tractor up - to go from using the 3pt or the backhoe - to using the additional front hydraulics.

PLEASE look at the PDF I posted earlier from WRLong (this one:http://www.wrlonginc.com/Hyd DO3B Flow Diagram.pdf ). As shown there, when you install another valve such as theirs it goes inline BETWEEN the loader valve and the backhoe/3 point. It is designed to work that way.

Aaron Z

 

[J_J]

New valves can be placed anywhere in the series flow as long as they have a PB port to feed fluid to the next valve.

If the 3pt is using the fluid, it has the full potential of the hyd system. However a valve up stream can take some or or all of the pump flow.

Every valve must have an out/return for the cyl or motor fluid to exit.

If you want hyd to the front, then take the PB from the loader and connect a new valve and then take the PB from the new valve and feed the hyd block, or the remotes or BH.

If you have the BH connected, the 3pt does not have to be in the circuit.

The only valves that may see any problems is a non PB valve in series with a downstream valve that can cause back pressure .

Non PB valves OUT/return ports should go to tank.

A log splitter valve is one example of a valve that should feed the OUT Fluid directly to tank and not put it in series with a downstream valve.

 

[jim_wilson]

PLEASE look at the PDF I posted earlier from WRLong (this one:http://www.wrlonginc.com/Hyd DO3B Flow Diagram.pdf ). As shown there, when you install another valve such as theirs it goes inline BETWEEN the loader valve and the backhoe/3 point. It is designed to work that way.

Aaron Z

I read the PDF - it basically says to do exactly what I've wanted to do all along - go back and read my posts - I'm thinking of doing EXACTLY what you're talking about : putting the diverter in the PB line coming from the loader valve - and going to the backhoe feed. I went back and took another look at the PDF just to refresh my memory - and it there is something on there that shows WHY I want to do it this way: the W.R. Long diagram mentions "4N1" - which means they are saying to do it this way - because you would want to have FEL hydraulics still active - when using one of their 4 in 1 buckets. This is basically the exact same reason I wanted to setup the hydraulics this way: I want the FEL hydraulics active at the same time I want the add-on hydraulics active: so I can use a 4 in 1 bucket, grapple - whatever.

Most of the diverter installs I have seen ..... divert the FEL hydraulics to control whatever additional attachment is added to the FEL - so you get normal FEL operation -or- additional implement operation , but not both at the same time.


J_J says I can avoid the diverter altogether and just put it all in series - I think I understand what he's talking about - but I don't think I can physically do that - because there is no way that I can see to put anything in series after the 3pt.

 

[J_J]

The 3pt valve is the last valve in the hyd system and sends fluid directly to tank.

Any additional valve must be in front of the 3pt.

If you are using a grapple or 4-IN- 1 , you need a diverter/selector valve.

Fluid path, pump , FEL, new valve, remotes, BH, 3pt.

The upstream valve has priority, and can use all of the fluid to operate a cyl, or the upstream valve may only use half or the pump flow and another valve may use the rest of the pump flow for whatever.

 

[aczlan]

I read the PDF - it basically says to do exactly what I've wanted to do all along - go back and read my posts - I'm thinking of doing EXACTLY what you're talking about : putting the diverter in the PB line coming from the loader valve - and going to the backhoe feed. I went back and took another look at the PDF just to refresh my memory - and it there is something on there that shows WHY I want to do it this way: the W.R. Long diagram mentions "4N1" - which means they are saying to do it this way - because you would want to have FEL hydraulics still active - when using one of their 4 in 1 buckets. This is basically the exact same reason I wanted to setup the hydraulics this way: I want the FEL hydraulics active at the same time I want the add-on hydraulics active: so I can use a 4 in 1 bucket, grapple - whatever.
Most of the diverter installs I have seen ..... divert the FEL hydraulics to control whatever additional attachment is added to the FEL - so you get normal FEL operation -or- additional implement operation , but not both at the same time.
J_J says I can avoid the diverter altogether and just put it all in series - I think I understand what he's talking about - but I don't think I can physically do that - because there is no way that I can see to put anything in series after the 3pt.

Look at where the valve is in the WRLong diagram again. Their valve is BEFORE the backhoe and 3 point as yours should be. The 3 point is ALWAYS the last thing in the loop.

A note in terminoilogy:
1. A diverter valve is generally intended to go between (for example) the curl lines and the curl cylinders to let you choose if putting the FEL lever into "Curl" position curls the bucket or opens the grapple. See Surplus Center - SAE 8 6 GPM DOUBLE SELECTOR VALVE 12 VDC P15544-2 for an example of a solenoid operated version
2. A valve such as the WRLong one is NOT a diverter valve. It is a standalone valve that goes inline and can be used at the exact same time as the FEL IF the FEL isn't using all of the flow. It is something like this one: Surplus Center - 12 VDC 5 GPM OC DA HYDRAFORCE SOLENOID VALVE

Lets try a diagram of your existing system with the backhoe on, how it would look with a new power beyond valve and how it would look with a new power beyond valve when the backhoe is removed:


Does that make more sense? In some cases (as shown with the WRLong valve), the "Tank" port is optional. Note that this diagram also omits the suction line on the pump.

Aaron Z