Thoughts on 100hp tractor options

[hayden]

I currently have Kubota L5740 and am considering adding a 100hp tractor of some sort. I want to be able to run a 15' batwing mower, and need more HP to drive an 84" hydraulic snow blower. The 5740 falls short on HP and weight for these tasks.

One area I'm focusing on is the transmission. The terrain here is very steep and uneven, and the HST in the L5740 has been great for that. But I'm concerned that a "manual" transmission will be a big step backwards. There appear to be two types in current tractors:

Synchronized gears, but clutch-to-shift. They all seem to have a clutch button on the shifter so you can just hold down the clutch button while shifting rathe than use the clutch peddle, but there will still be a pause as you shift. I'm thinking that when going real slow on steep terrain, I will actually have to brake to a stop, shift, then start up again. I'm sure I will get used to whatever, but this sounds less desirable.

Power shift gears where all the clutching is automatic and without loss of drive power, much the way an automatic transmission in a car shifts. This sounds much more desirable for my application.

All of them have foward-neutral-reverse clutchless shifting, often called a shuttle shift.

For range shifting, most require clutching, and perhaps even coming to a stop. But some have clutchless power shifting of ranges too, and even automatic reselection of the primary gear to match speed when you shift ranges. Some have just a single high/low gear range shift that is clutchless, but the individual gears are still clutch-to-shift, and there is typically a second manual shift range control too.

In a perfect world I'd just get powershift everything and I think be quite happy. The problem is that the smaller 100hp range tractors like the Massey 4700 series and the Kubota M4 series are only available with clutch shifting. Massey has a single high/low range power shift, but gears and ranges are otherwise clutch to shift.. I think Kubota is all clutch to shift. To get power shifting you need to move up to the Massey 5700 series or the Kubota M5 series. Both look like great machines, but probably overkill in all other ways for my needs, and of course a good bit more expensive.

Any thoughts on this, including any other thoughts on Massey 4700 vs 5700, and Kubota M4 vs M5 series machines?

 

[Rustyiron]

I'd guess that you don't have any experience with a "shuttle shift" or "left hand reverser" and a gear transmission and that's steering your conclusions about being a step backwards.
It's going to be difficult, but if you could find a way to demonstrate a 100hp with your conditions similar to yours I believe you'll understand the differences. For instance you mention possibly having to "brake to stop", operating a manual transmission (chores or loader work) your foot "gas pedal" is your primary speed and power controller whereas with a hydrostatic tractor the engine is set way up at or near PTO speed and your foot pedals are just controlling the flow of fluid for direction and speed.
On my m9540 my primary operating controls are my foot throttle and the left hand reverser and obviously the steering and loader/hydraulic controls. There's no clutching to change direction.
My brakes hardly see much work as releasing the throttle will slow the travel speed and being in the proper gear descending a hill does the same.
You're in the right tractor size for the batwing (you'll need 3 pair of remotes) but the 84" hyd blower IMHO it'll fall short particularly with a gear transmission without a creep gear option.
Worse case you can drive a couple of hours east and run my tractor around.

 

[Richard]

I'm not too knowlegable on all the different clutches. With that, here's my thoughts:

I'm on hilly terrain. I once had (rented) a Kubota L-35 with the GST transmission. I was on a slope, went to change range, direction, gears....something (been 20 years, don't recall) and what I did NOT know is, it would "pass through" neutral while doing what I wanted it to do.... I was on a slope, didn't expect this and it started to freewheel. I reacted and was near standing on the brake to keep machine still, while I held to steering wheel so I could pull myself harder onto the brake pedal. Decided I'd never have one of those out here again. (and haven't)

When I was looking for 15' flexwing mower, wanted a tractor large enough to stop it in place while on a hill. Ended up with the International 1066 with good brakes. This is only used as a lawn mower and, at times, I do need to hold the brakes while I'm changing gears or directions. Works fine but I still have to get to a stop to change gears/direction.

The backhoe is a geared machine but has a forward/reverser lever. One of the master cylinders needs help so one brake is weak. Doesn't really matter... as said above, I lay off gas, rpm's drop, machine slows... I DO have a brake if needed but, can always hit reverse to stop it nearly "right now".

 

[Yander]

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[Hay Dude]

I currently have Kubota L5740 and am considering adding a 100hp tractor of some sort. I want to be able to run a 15' batwing mower, and need more HP to drive an 84" hydraulic snow blower. The 5740 falls short on HP and weight for these tasks.

One area I'm focusing on is the transmission. The terrain here is very steep and uneven, and the HST in the L5740 has been great for that. But I'm concerned that a "manual" transmission will be a big step backwards. There appear to be two types in current tractors:

Synchronized gears, but clutch-to-shift. They all seem to have a clutch button on the shifter so you can just hold down the clutch button while shifting rathe than use the clutch peddle, but there will still be a pause as you shift. I'm thinking that when going real slow on steep terrain, I will actually have to brake to a stop, shift, then start up again. I'm sure I will get used to whatever, but this sounds less desirable.

Power shift gears where all the clutching is automatic and without loss of drive power, much the way an automatic transmission in a car shifts. This sounds much more desirable for my application.

All of them have foward-neutral-reverse clutchless shifting, often called a shuttle shift.

For range shifting, most require clutching, and perhaps even coming to a stop. But some have clutchless power shifting of ranges too, and even automatic reselection of the primary gear to match speed when you shift ranges. Some have just a single high/low gear range shift that is clutchless, but the individual gears are still clutch-to-shift, and there is typically a second manual shift range control too.

In a perfect world I'd just get powershift everything and I think be quite happy. The problem is that the smaller 100hp range tractors like the Massey 4700 series and the Kubota M4 series are only available with clutch shifting. Massey has a single high/low range power shift, but gears and ranges are otherwise clutch to shift.. I think Kubota is all clutch to shift. To get power shifting you need to move up to the Massey 5700 series or the Kubota M5 series. Both look like great machines, but probably overkill in all other ways for my needs, and of course a good bit more expensive.

Any thoughts on this, including any other thoughts on Massey 4700 vs 5700, and Kubota M4 vs M5 series machines?

The most important one you forgot is CVT tractors. They never lose power to the wheels. A powershift does, albeit very briefly.
If you want stability, buy a heavy tractor and set the rims/tires wide.
If you want no shifting on hills, buy a CVT tractor. You’d never go back to any other transmission.

If you want a stable tractor you dont have to shift on hills, buy a heavy CVT tractor. Best of both worlds.

I’m a heavy mowing contractor. I cut hills with a 15’ bushog and cut hay on hills nobody else wants to because they’re afraid of rollover. I run 3 different heavy CVT tractors and although it’s still dangerous, I’m much better off than I was in a lightweight powershift tractor.

 

[Rustyiron]

What HP do you need before it's offered? In my casual looking it starts pretty high in the HP department.
Not that I wouldn't love more HP

 

[oldnslo]

I believe Deere calls there transmission and IVT Vs CVT but are basically same style tranny. Both Fendt and Deere build tractors with this style of tranny, other brands may also.

My experience is with JD power shifts is they jerk every forth gear but have been around for years and I have not heard of any runaway problems on hills with power shift.

 

[Hay Dude]

I believe Deere calls there transmission and IVT Vs CVT but are basically same style tranny. Both Fendt and Deere build tractors with this style of tranny, other brands may also.

IVT is Deere. AGCO is called a CVT. I have 3 of them. Excellent “died and went to heaven” transmissions. Of course they can break, too. But they’re everything you’d ever want to operate.
Case-IH, new Holland and Kubota have them now, too.

My experience is with JD power shifts is they jerk every forth gear but have been around for years and I have not heard of any runaway problems on hills with power shift.

Thats because you are shifting into another range within the gearbox. Case-IH does it in 7-8 and 12-13.

 

[hayden]

I'd guess that you don't have any experience with a "shuttle shift" or "left hand reverser" and a gear transmission and that's steering your conclusions about being a step backwards.
It's going to be difficult, but if you could find a way to demonstrate a 100hp with your conditions similar to yours I believe you'll understand the differences. For instance you mention possibly having to "brake to stop", operating a manual transmission (chores or loader work) your foot "gas pedal" is your primary speed and power controller whereas with a hydrostatic tractor the engine is set way up at or near PTO speed and your foot pedals are just controlling the flow of fluid for direction and speed.
On my m9540 my primary operating controls are my foot throttle and the left hand reverser and obviously the steering and loader/hydraulic controls. There's no clutching to change direction.
My brakes hardly see much work as releasing the throttle will slow the travel speed and being in the proper gear descending a hill does the same.
You're in the right tractor size for the batwing (you'll need 3 pair of remotes) but the 84" hyd blower IMHO it'll fall short particularly with a gear transmission without a creep gear option.
Worse case you can drive a couple of hours east and run my tractor around.

True that I have little to no experience with this. I've only run a shuttle shift (synchro shift with a clutch button) once on a tractor similar to yours. But it was quite a few years ago.

What you describe makes total sense for loader work. My concern is operation with a 540 rpm PTO implement that requires constant engine RPMs. In that case I expect most speed control will be via shifting, and only a small amount by varying RPM. So as an example, I'm mowing up a steep hill and when I get to the top I need to turn around, placing myself sideways to the hill. Right now with the HST I slow down to make the turn, varying my slowness based on how uneven the terrain is, and how steep the slope is. Then once heading back down the hill, I resume mowing speed. And while mowign up or down hill, or even on more level ground, I often need to slow down for stretches because it's super bumpy or uneven, then resume speed. So there is a lot of slowing down and speeding up.

With a power shift I envision just bumping up or down a gear or two, then resuming. With a shuttle shift, I would do the same but need to clutch in between with the tractor wanting to stop or take off while clutching, depending on whether I'm going up or down hill.

Am I imagining this correctly, or do I have it all wrong?

 

[hayden]

The most important one you forgot is CVT tractors. They never lose power to the wheels. A powershift does, albeit very briefly.
If you want stability, buy a heavy tractor and set the rims/tires wide.
If you want no shifting on hills, buy a CVT tractor. You’d never go back to any other transmission.

If you want a stable tractor you dont have to shift on hills, buy a heavy CVT tractor. Best of both worlds.

I’m a heavy mowing contractor. I cut hills with a 15’ bushog and cut hay on hills nobody else wants to because they’re afraid of rollover. I run 3 different heavy CVT tractors and although it’s still dangerous, I’m much better off than I was in a lightweight powershift tractor.

What are examples of these CVT tractors? I'm not familiar with them.

 

[Hay Dude]

What are examples of these CVT tractors? I'm not familiar with them.

Go to any tractor manufacturer website and look.
Massey
Kubota
Case-IH
New Holland

 

[hayden]

OK, I found the Kubota CVT. It's in the M7 Premium models starting at 130hp, that much bigger and way more $$ than I can justify for my needs.

 

[Hay Dude]

OK, I found the Kubota CVT. It's in the M7 Premium models starting at 130hp, that much bigger and way more $$ than I can justify for my needs.

AGCO & Challenger used to make a 100-120HP CVT.
Massey still does.
CNH.
Deutz.
Fendt


I’m not trying to be mean, but if you're stuck on Kubota, then yeah, I guess thats all they have. I don’t know if used is an option?

Here’s a beautiful Deutz

Pardon Our Interruption

Heres a Fendt. They make the best tractor in the world.

Pardon Our Interruption

Just go to tractor house and do a search. I found plenty that were 100-120HP

 

[Hay Dude]

The really amazing thing with a CVT is you can be climbing a hill pulling your mower and basically just steer the tractor. Once you set the CVT knob to the ground speed you want, it just goes. You want to slow down? You just pull back the knob. Its a toggle switch drive by wire tractor with 2 ranges one for road and one for field.

I have 3 of them.
130HP
190HP
290HP

I would never want to go back to a powershift, unless I had to. And the way things are going….that just might happen

 

[LHF2019]

I think you really need to state a budget. Hard to assist without that important parameter.

 

[Drstrangeglove]

The really amazing thing with a CVT is you can be climbing a hill pulling your mower and basically just steer the tractor. Once you set the CVT knob to the ground speed you want, it just goes. You want to slow down? You just pull back the knob. Its a toggle switch drive by wire tractor with 2 ranges one for road and one for field.

I have 3 of them.
130HP
190HP
290HP

I would never want to go back to a powershift, unless I had to. And the way things are going….that just might happen

Op could be like me. Only choice here is kubota, deere and Massey. Deere construction stuff was horrible so they are out. I have an m5 kubota now. If did it all over again, I would look at Massey real hard.

 

[Hay Dude]

Op could be like me. Only choice here is kubota, deere and Massey. Deere construction stuff was horrible so they are out. I have an m5 kubota now. I I did it all over again, I would look at Massey real hard.

I’d prefer Massey over Kubby if I was farming. I don’t have a dog in the fight (brand preference) if it was a small chores tractor…

 

[Drstrangeglove]

I’d prefer Massey over Kubby if I was farming. I don’t have a dog in the fight (brand preference) if it was a small chores tractor…

I haven't seen a new Massey here in over 30 years. I wanted a fendt but the closest dealer was the other side of the next state. It was one of your posts that made me look at Massey.

 

[LHF2019]

I'm more familiar with the older JD's. While bulletproof the old 8 speeds powershifts had a lacking for the correct gear. You always want a gear in between the one you are using. I have one and it will never leave but it would have to be a special tractor for me to buy another. JD 20-40 series. Next up which I have and would buy all day long is the quad-range. 16 speed. 4 gears per range with 2 of them shiftable with no clutch by knocking the lever back and forth. JD 30-55 series. Next was their 15 speed powershift. If I had the choice between quad or 15 speed it would be the 15. JD 50-55 series. Once you cross over to the newer styles of the 90's it was the powerquad. 4 speed powershift in 4 ranges. The other choice is 19 speed. Have read stories on the 19 speed that if I had the choice between powerquad and 19 speed I would choose the powerquad. We had a 6400 with powerquad and it was a good tractor. Only 85 HP I believe. Your 100hp would put you in the 7000 series.

I only know old. I know the powerquad continues in some form today along with reversers. I have driven a CaseIH 7xxx? with the 3 speed power shift nice but can't say anything else about.

One reason a budget price is needed. Maybe your budget is endless then this post is just rambling about old tractors. lol Good luck with your search

 

[hayden]

AGCO & Challenger used to make a 100-120HP CVT.
Massey still does.
CNH.
Deutz.
Fendt


I’m not trying to be mean, but if you're stuck on Kubota, then yeah, I guess thats all they have. I don’t know if used is an option?

Here’s a beautiful Deutz

Pardon Our Interruption

Heres a Fendt. They make the best tractor in the world.

Pardon Our Interruption

Just go to tractor house and do a search. I found plenty that were 100-120HP

I'm definitely open to brands other than Kubota, so welcome the suggestions. You got me looking at Massey (thanks) and I really like the 4710 or 5711, but am obviously wondering about transmission options based on the terrain I have. There is a reason farmers left New England in the mid 1800s and moved to flatter land. Out of my 1500 acres, none of it is flat. I have a few acres that are "sloped", and everything else is steep. And all the "fields" are pretty small so I'm never running in long straight lines, but rather turning a lot and always crossing a fall line.

Having an accessible dealer of course matters, and Massey is within 2 hrs of me. The closest Fendt dealer is 6+ hours away, not surprisingly in an area with flat farm land . I haven't looked at Deere mostly because everyone says they are over priced. And Kubota is near by which makes them a candidate. I need to look harder at Massey if you say there is a CVT in the 100hp range. I only found it in the 6S line (I think I have that right) in higher HP ratings.

This whole endeavor is a bit of a stretch when you look at the costs involved vs my needs, so it may go nowhere. But I want to explore it and really appreciate the advice from people who regularly use these larger tractors.