OP
hayden
Veteran Member
Gee, I could have done that
But thanks!
OP
hayden
Veteran Member
This has been quite the journey, and for better or worse has lead me right back to where I started. I'm just going to keep using my Kubota L5740.
The search has really focused on three major areas, and I don't think there is anything in the market that addresses them all.
Size:
I want something in the 100 hp range, leaning a bit above that rather than below. My use is field mowing, snow blowing, and loader work. I do not farm, so no haying or row crop work. Something the size of a Massey 4700 or a Deere 5 series is just about right. If you get bigger than that, they are just gigantic for my needs. They are meant for row crop work, and for me it would be like stirring my tea with an excavator. Just crazy overkill. Not to mention a lot more $$ for size that I don't need.
Design quality, build quality, and availability of information:
I'm only interested in a well designed, well built machine, and I want full access to info about the machine, parts, update and option kits, manuals, etc. I'm a huge Kubota fan, owning 5 Kubota machines. But no company is best at everything, and Kubota really falls behind others as soon as you get above the L series and into real utility tractors. When you compare the thought and attention to detail and the features in a Massey or Deere compared to a Kubota, there is just no comparison in the bigger tractors. So I eliminated Kubota pretty early on.
It's probably just me, but it really annoys me when the only published info on a $100k tractor is a superficial brochure and even more superficial web site. All you can really gather from this material is that you will surely be happier, younger, and more attractive if you buy that product. Well, I know the last two aren't happening, so it really casts doubt on the first as well. At an absolute minimum, I want to be able to download and read the owners manual. I want to see EXACTLY how the various features work, because the difference between sucky, OK, and really good is all in the details. Only Deere makes operator manuals available for download. For everyone else you need to already own the machine, or pay for it. And Deere goes way beyond that. You can download every installation manual for every option and attachment. As a result I feel like I really know the machines, know what stuff I could add over time, and know how it all fits together. In other words, I know what I'm getting for my $100k. Deere really has their act together in this regard. I can also see all of the repair and technical manuals that are available. You do need to pay for those, but that's typical for everyone. But those manuals are jam packed with info. The Owners manual is 900 pages. The repair manual is 2,000 pages. And the diagnostic and techncial manual is 9,000 pages. Yup, that's not a typo. 12,000 pages in total. I just can't get squat for detailed info on a Kubota, Massey, or and other Agco machine.
Transmission:
This is a major thing for me, and where the whole prospect of buying a larger tractor falls apart. I live in the hills of Vermont where nothing is flat. All my operation is on sloped, uneven ground, and you need to have absolute control over the tractors movement. An HST is fantastic for this, but you can't get them above around 60-70hp. A manual transmission is a non-starter for me. I just don't want to be braking, clutching, stopping, shifting, and going again on steep, sloped ground.
This means the absolute minimum is a powershift, and even that depends a lot on what the power shift does, and how it performs when shifting on hills. Tractors have gear ranges, and then speeds within each range. And shifting basically takes three forms;
1) unsynchronized shifts where you need to clutch, come to a full stop, shift, then resume.
2) synchronized shifts where you need to clutch to shift, but can do so while still moving. This has become easier with hydraulic clutches that can be controlled by a button on the shift lever, as well as the more traditional clutch pedal.
3) Powershift where the shift is commanded by a button and happens while moving and while under power.
The ideal for me would be powershift for both the speeds and the ranges, but I only found one such offering in the tractor size range that I'm looking at. More available, but significantly less interesting would be powershift speeds with synchronized ranges.
A CVT/IVT transmission would be ideal, essentially giving the same control as an HST, but they really don't start to be available until you get into bigger machines.
So here's the path I followed looking at tractors.
I rejected Kubota early on because they are just not up to snuff with features and design sophistication. I love Kubota, but not for a bigger tractor.
Next were Massey 4700 and 5700. I like the tractors, but powershift is only available in the 5700, and it's really too big a tractor. Plus the closest Massey dealer is 2 hrs away. I'm also very leary of corporate roll-up companies like Agco. More often than not, they loose the product focus and customer focus that made the component companies great in the first place, and you end up with a company where nobody really cares anymore, and all decisions are bottom-line based.
Then I looked at Deere and remain very impressed for this class of tractor. The 5 series is a perfect fit, and there is an 8 speed powershift with syncho range shift transmission available. That's the best of anyone in that size. The problem I discovered is the position of the shift lever that makes the tractor un-drivable for me. I basically have to reach under my thigh to shift. This unfortunately kills the entire current 5 series for me.
Then I came across the discontinued 5R that has a full speed and range powershift available, plus electric over hydraulic loader control and rear aux port control which are really nice. I traveled to look at several of them, narrowing down what I wanted and didn't want, and made offers on two. But all available were either 6 year old machines, or 2 years old and grossly over priced. I also found that on hills the speed shifting worked well, but range shifting did not. The range shifting is enough slower that the tractor can roll to a full stop, and even start rolling backwards before the shift completes. And the transmission threw off errors when this happened.
Somewhat out of frustration I decided to look at the Deere 6 series which are BIG tractors, at least from my perspective. But Deere had recently shrunk the 110 and 120hp models, and was now offering a CVT/IVT transmission. They are much more expensive, but the prospect of an IVT in a 2 year old tractor with remaining warranty was appealing vs an old beat up 5R. So I went and looked at a bunch. The IVT is REALLY nice, and it what I really want. But even the "shrunken" 6120M is just giganticly oversized for my needs.
So, the void remains in the 75 to 130hp utility tractor market where the only transmission you can get is a manual or partial powershift. For level ground work I expect they are just fine, but for operating on hills they are marginal at best. To get an IVT transmission, you have to go into a much bigger machine that is just too big for people who otherwise would fit in a Deere 5 series or Massey 4700.
Fendt seems to offer a CVT/IVT is the smallest tractor with their 200 series, and at some point I'd like to check one out to see how big it really is in person, and see how it drives. But they are very uncommon around here (like non-existent), very expensive, and the closest dealer is 6 hrs away. So even if I loved it, buying one would be a huge risk and a massive problem if the tractor had issues.
If Deere offered an IVT in their 5 series, I'd be all over it. In the mean time, I'll keep just moving slowly with my L5740. It's been a fantastic tractor, albeit underpowered for my needs now 18 years after I bought it.
The search has really focused on three major areas, and I don't think there is anything in the market that addresses them all.
Size:
I want something in the 100 hp range, leaning a bit above that rather than below. My use is field mowing, snow blowing, and loader work. I do not farm, so no haying or row crop work. Something the size of a Massey 4700 or a Deere 5 series is just about right. If you get bigger than that, they are just gigantic for my needs. They are meant for row crop work, and for me it would be like stirring my tea with an excavator. Just crazy overkill. Not to mention a lot more $$ for size that I don't need.
Design quality, build quality, and availability of information:
I'm only interested in a well designed, well built machine, and I want full access to info about the machine, parts, update and option kits, manuals, etc. I'm a huge Kubota fan, owning 5 Kubota machines. But no company is best at everything, and Kubota really falls behind others as soon as you get above the L series and into real utility tractors. When you compare the thought and attention to detail and the features in a Massey or Deere compared to a Kubota, there is just no comparison in the bigger tractors. So I eliminated Kubota pretty early on.
It's probably just me, but it really annoys me when the only published info on a $100k tractor is a superficial brochure and even more superficial web site. All you can really gather from this material is that you will surely be happier, younger, and more attractive if you buy that product. Well, I know the last two aren't happening, so it really casts doubt on the first as well. At an absolute minimum, I want to be able to download and read the owners manual. I want to see EXACTLY how the various features work, because the difference between sucky, OK, and really good is all in the details. Only Deere makes operator manuals available for download. For everyone else you need to already own the machine, or pay for it. And Deere goes way beyond that. You can download every installation manual for every option and attachment. As a result I feel like I really know the machines, know what stuff I could add over time, and know how it all fits together. In other words, I know what I'm getting for my $100k. Deere really has their act together in this regard. I can also see all of the repair and technical manuals that are available. You do need to pay for those, but that's typical for everyone. But those manuals are jam packed with info. The Owners manual is 900 pages. The repair manual is 2,000 pages. And the diagnostic and techncial manual is 9,000 pages. Yup, that's not a typo. 12,000 pages in total. I just can't get squat for detailed info on a Kubota, Massey, or and other Agco machine.
Transmission:
This is a major thing for me, and where the whole prospect of buying a larger tractor falls apart. I live in the hills of Vermont where nothing is flat. All my operation is on sloped, uneven ground, and you need to have absolute control over the tractors movement. An HST is fantastic for this, but you can't get them above around 60-70hp. A manual transmission is a non-starter for me. I just don't want to be braking, clutching, stopping, shifting, and going again on steep, sloped ground.
This means the absolute minimum is a powershift, and even that depends a lot on what the power shift does, and how it performs when shifting on hills. Tractors have gear ranges, and then speeds within each range. And shifting basically takes three forms;
1) unsynchronized shifts where you need to clutch, come to a full stop, shift, then resume.
2) synchronized shifts where you need to clutch to shift, but can do so while still moving. This has become easier with hydraulic clutches that can be controlled by a button on the shift lever, as well as the more traditional clutch pedal.
3) Powershift where the shift is commanded by a button and happens while moving and while under power.
The ideal for me would be powershift for both the speeds and the ranges, but I only found one such offering in the tractor size range that I'm looking at. More available, but significantly less interesting would be powershift speeds with synchronized ranges.
A CVT/IVT transmission would be ideal, essentially giving the same control as an HST, but they really don't start to be available until you get into bigger machines.
So here's the path I followed looking at tractors.
I rejected Kubota early on because they are just not up to snuff with features and design sophistication. I love Kubota, but not for a bigger tractor.
Next were Massey 4700 and 5700. I like the tractors, but powershift is only available in the 5700, and it's really too big a tractor. Plus the closest Massey dealer is 2 hrs away. I'm also very leary of corporate roll-up companies like Agco. More often than not, they loose the product focus and customer focus that made the component companies great in the first place, and you end up with a company where nobody really cares anymore, and all decisions are bottom-line based.
Then I looked at Deere and remain very impressed for this class of tractor. The 5 series is a perfect fit, and there is an 8 speed powershift with syncho range shift transmission available. That's the best of anyone in that size. The problem I discovered is the position of the shift lever that makes the tractor un-drivable for me. I basically have to reach under my thigh to shift. This unfortunately kills the entire current 5 series for me.
Then I came across the discontinued 5R that has a full speed and range powershift available, plus electric over hydraulic loader control and rear aux port control which are really nice. I traveled to look at several of them, narrowing down what I wanted and didn't want, and made offers on two. But all available were either 6 year old machines, or 2 years old and grossly over priced. I also found that on hills the speed shifting worked well, but range shifting did not. The range shifting is enough slower that the tractor can roll to a full stop, and even start rolling backwards before the shift completes. And the transmission threw off errors when this happened.
Somewhat out of frustration I decided to look at the Deere 6 series which are BIG tractors, at least from my perspective. But Deere had recently shrunk the 110 and 120hp models, and was now offering a CVT/IVT transmission. They are much more expensive, but the prospect of an IVT in a 2 year old tractor with remaining warranty was appealing vs an old beat up 5R. So I went and looked at a bunch. The IVT is REALLY nice, and it what I really want. But even the "shrunken" 6120M is just giganticly oversized for my needs.
So, the void remains in the 75 to 130hp utility tractor market where the only transmission you can get is a manual or partial powershift. For level ground work I expect they are just fine, but for operating on hills they are marginal at best. To get an IVT transmission, you have to go into a much bigger machine that is just too big for people who otherwise would fit in a Deere 5 series or Massey 4700.
Fendt seems to offer a CVT/IVT is the smallest tractor with their 200 series, and at some point I'd like to check one out to see how big it really is in person, and see how it drives. But they are very uncommon around here (like non-existent), very expensive, and the closest dealer is 6 hrs away. So even if I loved it, buying one would be a huge risk and a massive problem if the tractor had issues.
If Deere offered an IVT in their 5 series, I'd be all over it. In the mean time, I'll keep just moving slowly with my L5740. It's been a fantastic tractor, albeit underpowered for my needs now 18 years after I bought it.
