Tier 4 idle question

[vtwinhd]

So the book says it ain't good to idle these new tier 4 engines because the build up of crap in the DPF. So how is everyone operating. I'm doing mostly loader work in the woods on the small property. In the past with older diesels I've never shut them down with out working for a few hours. So what's best. Say you're logging in the woods and you get off to buck up a tree and you're off the tractor for 5,10,20 minutes. Do I just run her at a higher RPM maybe 1200 or so or shut her down. So if that is so then why even allow the engine to idle down to 800 rpm what's the deal here. I'd like to prolong the life of my machine as much as possible. What about doing light loader work while the RPMs are really low. Is the still considered idleing.

 

[buickanddeere]

No win thanks to the EPA. To bad common sense didn't halt emissions specs at Tier II.

 

[pmsmechanic]

I have a friend that has a potato farm. His trucks were giving him no end of troubles with dpf regeneration etc. To the point where during regeneration there was no point in even trying to drive the truck in the field during regeneration. In Alberta it's not illegal to remove emissions equipment so that's what happened. Thew cost was about $5000/truck. He expects to get his money back in reduced down time and repairs and in increased fuel efficiency's.

back to your query I very rarely idle my diesels for extended periods. For one thing they don't warm up doing it and the other is that it puts way too much unburnt diesel in the crankcase. My trucks I wait until I have my seat belt on and then drive off. My tractors get about a minute of lighter work and then it's work time. I hate the sound of a motor idling for nothing so if I'm doing nothing with my equipment it get's shut off.

 

[All In A Days Work]

X2 what pmsmechanic said about idling diesels. As far as tractors go, for the last 20 years my wife and I have rented tractors so we watched the hour meter ticking. If we weren't on the tractor it was shut off. So once I learned about the negative side effects of idling at least the newer diesels it was easy for me to adopt the habit of shutting them down if not in use.

A friend of mine works for a Wild land fire management team and has told me that they have run into problems where the new trucks have went into Regen as they were in an off road situation causing the truck to start it's own fire. Not sure what the fix is but it does seem to be a little troublesome.

 

[MinnesotaEric]

So the book says it ain't good to idle these new tier 4 engines because the build up of crap in the DPF. So how is everyone operating. I'm doing mostly loader work in the woods on the small property. In the past with older diesels I've never shut them down with out working for a few hours. So what's best. Say you're logging in the woods and you get off to buck up a tree and you're off the tractor for 5,10,20 minutes. Do I just run her at a higher RPM maybe 1200 or so or shut her down. So if that is so then why even allow the engine to idle down to 800 rpm what's the deal here. I'd like to prolong the life of my machine as much as possible. What about doing light loader work while the RPMs are really low. Is the still considered idleing.

Like a good little tree-hugger i tried abiding with my tier 4. But the tuner in me got irked when I felt power sap off quickly as the DPF filter plugged up requiring frequent regeneration cycles.

As a result, I've decided to defeat my tier4 in my Kioti at some point in the future by removing the DPF filter and installing a test tube as well as fooling the ECU into continually thinking that it has a brand new DPF filter in it. Alternatively, some people have progressively drilled bigger holes through their existing DPF filters so as to maintain the proper back pressure. They are checking this out according the the pressure sensor reference voltage. In other words, look up in the service manual what the voltage should be with a new filter and drill out the filter by trial and error until you get the right reference voltage. The result is the ECU always thinks it has brand new DPF filter installed and you can roll coal.

When I do it, I'll make a video that will be specific to the NX series but I will offer generic advice on how to do it on your new truck, tractor, Volvo wagon, or whatever.

 

[Retired Iron Peddler]

My Kubota L5460HSTC is Tier 4. I don't idle the engine. I treat it like all my other diesels and don't idle them either. A diesel engine cools when idling, and if left idling too long, the cooled combustion chambers don't completely burn the fuel which "washes" the protective oil film off the cylinder walls and eventually dilutes the oil in the crankcase. I treat all my diesels the same way... crank them up, as soon as the oil pressure is up, I put them in gear and go. If operating under full RPM and power, I idle them down for only a couple of minutes and shut them off.

I have nearly 100 hours on my Kubota L5460 and it has regenerated the DPF twice so far and it's currently showing a 50% soot load in the DPF. Both times it automatically regenerated while running at 2,400-rpm under a load. The only difference I noticed was the indicator light on the dash. I have no desire nor interest in defeating the emission system on this tractor.

Bill

 

[All In A Days Work]

Eric the Oracle, I like the way you think. But I hope that with my new tractor I will be able to truck along just fine like Bill the Retired Iron Peddler.

 

[Catchad81]

My Kubota L5460HSTC is Tier 4. I don't idle the engine. I treat it like all my other diesels and don't idle them either. A diesel engine cools when idling, and if left idling too long, the cooled combustion chambers don't completely burn the fuel which "washes" the protective oil film off the cylinder walls and eventually dilutes the oil in the crankcase. I treat all my diesels the same way... crank them up, as soon as the oil pressure is up, I put them in gear and go. If operating under full RPM and power, I idle them down for only a couple of minutes and shut them off.

I have nearly 100 hours on my Kubota L5460 and it has regenerated the DPF twice so far and it's currently showing a 50% soot load in the DPF. Both times it automatically regenerated while running at 2,400-rpm under a load. The only difference I noticed was the indicator light on the dash. I have no desire nor interest in defeating the emission system on this tractor.

Bill

Are you really concerned, even in older diesels, with diluting the oil in the crankcase? What is your experience with that?

 

[Retired Iron Peddler]

Are you really concerned, even in older diesels, with diluting the oil in the crankcase? What is your experience with that?

Yes, I would be concerned. I retired from the diesel truck and tractor sales and service business after 40 years (note my "handle") as a factory rep for a major manufacturer and later in the retail business. What I've seen from idling diesel engines has made me very conscious of not idling a diesel engine. Cylinder wall "wash down" from unburned fuel is more of a concern than diluting the engine oil; however, idling a diesel long enough will eventually dilute the oil. If you leave your tractor idling, speed the engine up to 1,200 to 1,500 rpm which will reduce the cooling effect along with reducing the amount of cylinder swash down and oil dilution. The extra fuel consumed won't be noticeable.

Bill

 

[pmsmechanic]

Yes, I would be concerned. I retired from the diesel truck and tractor sales and service business after 40 years (note my "handle") as a factory rep for a major manufacturer and later in the retail business. What I've seen from idling diesel engines has made me very conscious of not idling a diesel engine. Cylinder wall "wash down" from unburned fuel is more of a concern than diluting the engine oil; however, idling a diesel long enough will eventually dilute the oil. If you leave your tractor idling, speed the engine up to 1,200 to 1,500 rpm which will reduce the cooling effect along with reducing the amount of cylinder swash down and oil dilution. The extra fuel consumed won't be noticeable.

Bill

Yea finally someone is talking the same language I am. Thanks so much for your post. I'm a mechanic and I fight this idling battle all the time. You don't need to idle a diesel excessively. They have the same bearing loads as gas engines.

 

[Catchad81]

Yes, I would be concerned. I retired from the diesel truck and tractor sales and service business after 40 years (note my "handle") as a factory rep for a major manufacturer and later in the retail business. What I've seen from idling diesel engines has made me very conscious of not idling a diesel engine. Cylinder wall "wash down" from unburned fuel is more of a concern than diluting the engine oil; however, idling a diesel long enough will eventually dilute the oil. If you leave your tractor idling, speed the engine up to 1,200 to 1,500 rpm which will reduce the cooling effect along with reducing the amount of cylinder swash down and oil dilution. The extra fuel consumed won't be noticeable.

Bill

What is idling in rpm's to you? I ask because we run multiple '70 model JD tractors, which are limited not to "idle" below 1000. This was decided due to anything with the engine, but instead the AC compressors. If engine idles really low, compressor cycles on and off more and won't last long.

 

[buickanddeere]

Like a good little tree-hugger i tried abiding with my tier 4. But the tuner in me got irked when I felt power sap off quickly as the DPF filter plugged up requiring frequent regeneration cycles.

As a result, I've decided to defeat my tier4 in my Kioti at some point in the future by removing the DPF filter and installing a test tube as well as fooling the ECU into continually thinking that it has a brand new DPF filter in it. Alternatively, some people have progressively drilled bigger holes through their existing DPF filters so as to maintain the proper back pressure. They are checking this out according the the pressure sensor reference voltage. In other words, look up in the service manual what the voltage should be with a new filter and drill out the filter by trial and error until you get the right reference voltage. The result is the ECU always thinks it has brand new DPF filter installed and you can roll coal.

When I do it, I'll make a video that will be specific to the NX series but I will offer generic advice on how to do it on your new truck, tractor, Volvo wagon, or whatever.

OBDII should throw a trouble code when the particulate filter never plugs. There will be a max hour limit.

 

[john_bud]

Diesel wash of the cylinder walls is much more of a concern with older diesels with the low pressure injectors that couldn't create as fine a mist as the modern systems. I know my 1963 ford diesel tractor will go from clean exhaust to white unburnt fuel if left idling long. But the new Kubota won't. Also, the old timers tale of the engine running was from a time when diesel cost was 35 cents a gallon. Yeah, it was cheap to keep it running, but now that fuel is 3 bucks a gallon (and was 4 recently), it doesn't take long to cost a bunch. And I do tend to shut down and restart if I plan on being off the machine (new or old) for more than a couple minutes. Not a big deal and it does not wear out starters to use them a few extra times an hour. Just my opinion.

 

[Catchad81]

Diesel wash of the cylinder walls is much more of a concern with older diesels with the low pressure injectors that couldn't create as fine a mist as the modern systems. I know my 1963 ford diesel tractor will go from clean exhaust to white unburnt fuel if left idling long. But the new Kubota won't. Also, the old timers tale of the engine running was from a time when diesel cost was 35 cents a gallon. Yeah, it was cheap to keep it running, but now that fuel is 3 bucks a gallon (and was 4 recently), it doesn't take long to cost a bunch. And I do tend to shut down and restart if I plan on being off the machine (new or old) for more than a couple minutes. Not a big deal and it does not wear out starters to use them a few extra times an hour. Just my opinion.

Our old 4020 does what you describe, remember it from when I was a kid, and it still runs today no real difference.

Our farm runs about 14 different tractors. We also used to run an over the road trucking business, but now only run a dump truck or two. Other than shutting the tractors off for lunch time, which is usually an hour, or other extended time away, we will let them idle, at about 1000 rpms. I actually tell my truck drivers, then and now, while waiting in a quarry to get loaded, or whatever the case, not to shut the engine off. We have had our amount of starter problems on trucks and tractors, whether a ground, lose connection, pour charging, etc., and find it best to let the engines idle vs the downtime and costs of a failure to start.

 

[drizler]

It;s sort of a balancing act isn't it? Sure shut it off but with the number of diesel trucks I have seen shut off and discover that moment to find a bad starter sure does account for something. If I was off someplace in the boonies with something rather old I wouldn't shut it off unless I had to.

 

[drizler]

Like a good little tree-hugger i tried abiding with my tier 4. But the tuner in me got irked when I felt power sap off quickly as the DPF filter plugged up requiring frequent regeneration cycles.


That loss of power seems odd to me. My Massey does absolutely nothing any different than usual. The only difference I see is the machine starts to smell like it;s running hot. No temperature or rpm increase nothing just that hot engine smell as I do whatever I'm doing. I thought the Kioti used the blue cow pee rather than DPF screen?

 

[Utopia Texas]

My Tier 4B New Holland T4.75 also performs no different during the regeneration cycle. If it were not for the 2 second beep at the start of the regeneration cycle I would never know it was happening. No difference in power, sound, engine temperature etc. Just like most other folks I hate government intervention in our personal lives but somewhere down the line we are leaving a crapped out world to future generations and I have no intention of altering any exhaust system. Will a tractor dealership even work on a tractor that has been altered? Both my local JD and NH dealerships will already not work on any lawn mowers or tractors if any of the safety shields or sensors have been altered or removed. I assume the same goes for a exhaust system alteration....

 

[eth555]

I double what drizler and Utopia Texas said, my NH T4.105 feels no different leading up to or during a regeneration; if not for the beep when the regen starts I would never know it was happening. I have had it happen when doing power intensive jobs and there has not been a power decrease. I also try not to idle for a longer period of time, I would say greater than 5 minutes; on cold starts I do not run it real hard for the first 5 minutes either. I do let it idle for a short time before shut down, just to let turbo cool and slow down.

 

[jaywdeee]

I don't let either of the Kubotas idle when not in use for many reasons. One not mentioned earlier is that the hour meter is ticking away adding time and lowering resale or trade in because of higher "mileage".

 

[Paystar]

Just a thought. Why don't we all email these guys to show them interest in DPF deletes for the small compacts. They already do agricultural tractors, and their deletes and programs work wonders on big rigs.
Diesel Spec | Engine performance repair & tuning for heavy truck

It would be pretty easy for them to come up with a fix as these small compacts are a lot less complicated than the systems on big trucks.