Tier 4 is comming... now is the time to get off the fence!

[arrow]

They're not going to stop manufacturers from making parts for older engines, they're just not going to make any more of the older style engines. It's like old antique cars, they aren't taking them all away from us, they just aren't making the dirty emission engines any longer. You don't need to pass emissions with your antique car, but of course they're not replacing the antique cars that go away.

I don't know why everyone is freaking out about these Tier 4 engines. It's not the end of the tractor world guys, it's a change we have to deal with yea, but it's not the end like some of you make it out to be.

Actually didn't they attempt to get rid of as many "antique cars" as possible when they issued "Cash for Clunkers"? I do not think people are "freaking out". I think knowing how our present government is working would certainly bring forth possible ramifications of any move coming from the government. I personally do not have "implicit" trust of this administration or for that matter, any administration. I, as others considering what has been shown to us thus far by this current regime, would be remiss not to have a healthy "suspect" of the current bunch now residing in Washington.

 

[ctlguy]

Tier 4 is kind off old news now in the farm tractor world (150+ pto hp), has been that way for a bit. I think the tractor folks have done a better job reacting to this than the on road truck industry. Prices certainly went up but in the process many of us learned that based on how the hp was used in previous machines that units where drasticly overpowered for the uses they where put to based on the computers logs. Some of the new approach is utilizing more of the engines cababilites instead of our thought that more power is better and that working an engine hard is bad. As noted earlier we still don't know how this affects overall engine life but the puchase of tier 4 row crop tractors has not slowed one bit and with these requirements there are additional great improvements being made ie. sequential/variable geomotry turbos, etc, etc. Hopefully we see some extended features that benefit the user more than the gov't with lower hp units as they are added (I think we already have, many cuts are now using ccu's, ecu's etc I believe this is a plus). One thing is for sure is that when large frame farm tractors went this route late model used machines gained in value substantailly. As there are more and more tier 4 units out there and the fear goes away those late model used machines declined in value (somewhat). The price increases for machinery is getting staggering and not all of that can be blamed on gov't engine restrictions everything is just getting more and more expensive. Not necc the best comparison as AG users have to have the equipment where homeowners may just want the equipment. My two cents, not necc acurate just what I percieved.

 

[MessickFarmEqu]

Tier 4 is kind off old news now in the farm tractor world (150+ pto hp), has been that way for a bit.

I'm totally with you. Most farmers seem to have accepted Tier4. My concern comes in that as a % of purchase price the added cost is much more on a CUT, and its often more of a luxury than a need. I'm pretty sure we are going to price some people out of the market.

 

[PoorPlowboy]

Tier4 doesn't bother the large farmers because they don't own the equipment. Most of it is on lease (warranty) and if it is owned, it will be owned by a co-op. It's also just another "cost of doing business" to them and is passed on to the next purchaser in the food chain.

The folks that will really be burned by T4F are the folks who buy a piece of equipment with the intent of it lasting them for the rest of their lives, which is many of us hobby farmers. The increased costs in maintaining just the emissions system long term will be a "no-go." Many of the small time farmers in my area will take themselves out of the market before they are forced to buy a computerized tractor, much less one with a turbo, DPF, EGR, or one that takes yet another new fluid to keep on hand (DEF.) If they can't repair it on the homestead or farm, they won't own it.

I simply hope for the sake of my dinner plate that when they do remove themselves from the market, someone else will be ready to step in. I have a feeling it will be a big time co-op who doesn't even own their own equipment.

 

[Rustyiron]

IMO it would be better to VOTE this year for those in favor of less regulations especially those coming from the EPA. Like most federal agencies they have done some good but they can't control themselves either and are making all of us suffer the consequences of their actions. End of rant.

10-4!!!!

 

[Monster5601]

IMO it would be better to VOTE this year for those in favor of less regulations especially those coming from the EPA. Like most federal agencies they have done some good but they can't control themselves either and are making all of us suffer the consequences of their actions. End of rant.

Not a rant at all, I think you hit the nail on the head. All the regulations pouring out of Washington comes at a cost to the end user. Can a car be made to get 50 MPG, likely but I doubt the middle class will be able to afford one. Do we really need Tier IV-F on utility tractors given the typical number of hours used each year, no. Washington has lost their view of common sense. Like Messick indicated, Tier IV-F on small utility tractors is going to price them out of reach of many.

Why did the rail and marine industries get a pass on Tier IV-F?

If we don't slow down the regulators and get common sense back into their equations, we may just see them regulate us into financial extinction.

10-4!!!!

QSL

 

[MessickFarmEqu]

Do we really need Tier IV-F on utility tractors given the typical number of hours used each year, no. .

Or our chain saws, leaf blowers, weed wackers, lawn mowers... etc.

I get highly annoyed at this whole movment when they do things like this that make so little sense. Why not tackle the biggest causes (like farting cows) rather than waste our time on such insignificant sources.

 

[jenkinsph]

Why not tackle the biggest causes (like farting cows) rather than waste our time on such insignificant sources.

I like cows, why not get rid of the farting government regulators instead?

 

[chim]

I like cows, why not get rid of the farting government regulators instead?

You have my vote!! We're headed to you know where in a handbasket. WAY too much control, waste and cronyism in the government at all levels. Even in our little township. Several years ago, one of the township supervisors was voted out of office. The remaining buddies created a new township position with excellent wages and benefits to prevent their friend (or potential blackmailer?) from being unemployed. Multiply that by tens of thousands at the federal level.

 

[arrow]

I like cows, why not get rid of the farting government regulators instead?

LMAO.....I think the largest polluters (barring cars) are the myriad of commercial aircraft flying the bazillion routes they do on a daily basis. I wonder how many cars equivocate to the stuff coming out of one 757.

 

[MasseyWV]

LMAO.....I think the largest polluters (barring cars) are the myriad of commercial aircraft flying the bazillion routes they do on a daily basis. I wonder how many cars equivocate to the stuff coming out of one 757.

There was a time in the not too distant past where I can remember looking at the sky and rarely seeing a jet flying overhead, now the darned things are everywhere. At any given time of day, I can look at the sky and see at least three jets going in all directions.

 

[oldballs]

Where am I in this? The B2620 that I just bought new in July says "This engine meets 2011 Tier 4 emission regulations for USA, EPA and California non road CI engines". Maybe the cost was figured in already.

 

[SSdoxie]

Where am I in this? The B2620 that I just bought new in July says "This engine meets 2011 Tier 4 emission regulations for USA, EPA and California non road CI engines". Maybe the cost was figured in already.

You have the Interim Tier4 that does not have any of the electronic injection or exhaust after treatment that will likely be on engine with same HP next year. Final tier4 for the 25 - 75 HP off road engines starts next year 2013.

 

[oldballs]

You have the Interim Tier4 that does not have any of the electronic injection or exhaust after treatment that will likely be on engine with same HP next year. Final tier4 for the 25 - 75 HP off road engines starts next year 2013.

Well that makes me happy and my tractor too. Thanks Dennis

 

[dave1949]

This is an overview of the Tier 1-4 standards by engine horsepower, date at which standard is applied, etc.
Emission Standards: USA: Nonroad Diesel Engines


Tier 4 final rule signing dates back to 2004:
Clean Air Nonroad Diesel - Tier 4 - Final Rule | US EPA
"Tier 4 Standards. On May 11, 2004, the EPA signed the final rule introducing Tier 4 emission standards, which are to be phased-in over the period of 2008-2015 ..."

 

[CBW1999]

Tier 4 is an unrealistic approach to the problem. As pointed out, the CUT is more often an occasional use tool.

As an example, not quite 100% accurate but- A base model B3200 will have an almost 20 percent cost increase in price because of this.

So, when are the credits, assistance, subsidies coming through for this? By and large, people don't buy a tractor purely as a recreational device or "toy" (well mostly.....). Yet, The government sponsored "cash for clunkers" to subsidize and increase car sales. Which, IMHO allowed those who could afford to upgrade- the opportunity to do so and didn't do anything for the majority of the country let alone the environment.

The tractor industry will suffer from decreased sales, lower need for production and ultimately layoffs and closing of plants...never mind the number of dealerships that may fold up. When all this happens- will the government step in to bail them out and pump money into this just as they did the auto industry?

If this is such an important step to protect the environment, then it should be affordable and accessible to all. If there is such a demonstrable need to get polluting engines out of service, why are there ANY exemptions?

...I now turn the soapbox over to the next candidate-

 

[k0ua]

Tier 4 is an unrealistic approach to the problem. As pointed out, the CUT is more often an occasional use tool.

As an example, not quite 100% accurate but- A base model B3200 will have an almost 20 percent cost increase in price because of this.

So, when are the credits, assistance, subsidies coming through for this? By and large, people don't buy a tractor purely as a recreational device or "toy" (well mostly.....). Yet, The government sponsored "cash for clunkers" to subsidize and increase car sales. Which, IMHO allowed those who could afford to upgrade- the opportunity to do so and didn't do anything for the majority of the country let alone the environment.

The tractor industry will suffer from decreased sales, lower need for production and ultimately layoffs and closing of plants...never mind the number of dealerships that may fold up. When all this happens- will the government step in to bail them out and pump money into this just as they did the auto industry?

If this is such an important step to protect the environment, then it should be affordable and accessible to all. If there is such a demonstrable need to get polluting engines out of service, why are there ANY exemptions?

...I now turn the soapbox over to the next candidate-

There is not much left to say. a $3000 hit to a CUT is substantial, and I agree they should have been exempted up to 50 horsepower. But they weren't. It is always the unintended consequences that cause the most trouble.

James K0UA

 

[dave1949]

CBW1999:
If this is such an important step to protect the environment, then it should be affordable and accessible to all. If there is such a demonstrable need to get polluting engines out of service, why are there ANY exemptions?

If you put a price on this EPA estimate (and accept it):
"These reductions in NOx and PM emissions from nonroad diesel engines will provide enormous public health benefits. EPA estimates that by 2030, controlling these emissions would annually prevent 12,000 premature deaths, 8,900 hospitalizations, and one million work days lost."
then we are talking about shifting costs from patients to tractor owners.

I have no idea about the rationale for exemptions. I can guarantee if there were none, that would be a point of criticism also.

I don't pretend to know what is "right" here, but there are things to consider. As a percentage of total purchase and maintenance costs, there is no denying Tier 4 seems to hit small tractor owners hard.

 

[JJZ 109]

Buy my low hour 2009 B3030 HSDCC now and avoid the substantial price increase! :laughing:

 

[crazyal]

The good thing will be that unlike a car there is no inspections for tractors so once you get it home you can do what you want to it.