Comparison Tier IV Questions For Messicks

[s219]

Apparently (??) Kubota found a way to reduce particulate matter exhaust from the small displacement B2601 and B2650 engines so they meet Tire IV requirements with engineering/technology omitting a Diesel Particulate Filter. (DPF)


Can anyone expand on this?

They are exempt. There are also a whole bunch of Tier IV Interim machines that automatically meet Tier IV Final.

The biggest problem I see here on TBN is that there is a perception that the new Tier IV Final machines are special and everything before that was Tier III. But Tier III only applied to higher horsepower machines and only for a limited number of years. Most other compact tractors have been Tier IV Interim for many years. This chart has been helpful in separating things out:

For some reason, the horsepower cutoff is hazy among manufacturers, and it seems like more than the conversion/rounding from 19 kW to 25.479 HP. There are plenty of machines that are slightly over 19kW but meet the EPA cutoff for Tier IV Final without any emissions controls. It's a mystery unless there is some RPM limit that holds them back. For example, the Kubota L2501 has the old 34HP L3400 engine and it's simply RPM-governed to stay below Tier IV limits. How that is legal is something between Kubota and the EPA I guess. But it's a clever way for Kubota to sell a powerful torquey tractor that doesn't need any emissions controls.

 

[ericm979]

Just to clarify- there are emissions limits for Tier IV tractors under 19kW/25.5hp. They're easier to meet, so it's possible without added equipment. The manufacturers may do things like changing combustion chamber shape and injection timing to meet the limits but they don't need a DPF or DOC.

 

[majorwager]

In addition to what Eric noted above, the design of many 3 cylinder diesels, simply produces an inherently cleaner combustion result. Even in the higher hp models, a 3 cylinder provides an easier path to complience using DOC technology.

MF and others use this engine up to and including the 100 hp range because the design performs a portion of the stated goal.

 

[MessickFarmEqu]

Any worries about this are silly. No one should use emmissions as a buying factor. We sell every variation of emmissions and none are any better or more trouble free than any other. 90% of the issues with this stuff are operator induced.

 

[Steppenwolfe]

Any worries about this are silly. No one should use emmissions as a buying factor. We sell every variation of emmissions and none are any better or more trouble free than any other. 90% of the issues with this stuff are operator induced.

:thumbsup:

 

[3930dave]

Any worries about this are silly. No one should use emmissions as a buying factor. We sell every variation of emmissions and none are any better or more trouble free than any other. 90% of the issues with this stuff are operator induced.

Other than monkeying with (modifying) the emission system, what are operators doing to cause problems ?

Rgds, D.

 

[CincyFlyer]

I believe that it's got an EGR valve in it, and, they use DOC (basically a catalytic converter). The DOC is passive (don't think anything is monitored). EGR bits, however, require some controlling.

Yes. My 2540 has a catalytic converter (for passive after-treatment of the exhaust) and EGR (to control burn temperature), but no DPF (diesel particulate filter, which captures the soot and periodically burns it off by wasting fuel) or DEF system (diesel exhaust fluid, often used on automobiles and light trucks). It is smokeless except for a short period if you go from "chugging around" engine speed to PTO max, then it cleans up again.

 

[Goose69]

Any worries about this are silly. No one should use emmissions as a buying factor. We sell every variation of emmissions and none are any better or more trouble free than any other. 90% of the issues with this stuff are operator induced.

...By this reasoning, it would imply that one would want to look for whatever emissions systems require the least amount of input from the operator.

 

[jaydee325]

Other than monkeying with (modifying) the emission system, what are operators doing to cause problems ?

Rgds, D.

My empirical observation is that operators are trying to operate these machines at just above low idle RPM as it has always been done. Lugging these engines around causes excessive soot and problems. They equate high RPM operation as causing excess wear and fuel consumption.

These new engines are designed to be operated at PTO speed (or very near).

Just my humble opinion.

 

[majorwager]

Stating that an engine is DESIGNED to be operated at higher operation rpm's does NOT make it so.The manufacturers have NO choice but to sing the EPA mantra in order for their engines to function. Discounting engine wear and fuel consumption may very well be the naive perspective? My Kubota is tier lll, A or B, not sure, but it suits me just fine, Lower rpm's, I save fuel, Kubota tractors not renowned for their fuel economy, at lest not mine!

EDIT:

AGREE w/ OLDOAK.. Any backhoe task I ever attempted did NOT require full flow to the hoe. The machine becomes "Jerky" Always achieved smoother motions with the control valve using LESS than full hydraulic flow to the cylinders. Everyone should strive to achieve "smooth operator" status.

 

[3930dave]

My empirical observation is that operators are trying to operate these machines at just above low idle RPM as it has always been done. Lugging these engines around causes excessive soot and problems. They equate high RPM operation as causing excess wear and fuel consumption.

These new engines are designed to be operated at PTO speed (or very near).

Just my humble opinion.

That's one thing I've heard. If true, one of the key diesel advantages has been lost.

Rgds, D.

 

[Oldoak]

My empirical observation is that operators are trying to operate these machines at just above low idle RPM as it has always been done. Lugging these engines around causes excessive soot and problems. They equate high RPM operation as causing excess wear and fuel consumption.

These new engines are designed to be operated at PTO speed (or very near).

Just my humble opinion.

So with the Tier DPF, you must run the engine at a much higher RPM and burn more fuel to improve the air quality? It doesn't make sense. Of course not much that the government mandates makes sense. :confused3:

The biggest waste would be running the tractor at or near PTO speed while operating the backhoe. I have never required or wanted the tractor engine to run at that high of RPM while using a backhoe on any tractor.

 

[CincyFlyer]

My empirical observation is that operators are trying to operate these machines at just above low idle RPM as it has always been done. Lugging these engines around causes excessive soot and problems. They equate high RPM operation as causing excess wear and fuel consumption.

These new engines are designed to be operated at PTO speed (or very near).

Just my humble opinion.

I only use that kind of engine speed when I'm using the PTO or the backhoe. Otherwise, chug, chug, chug. For 135 hours in a year, no issues. No DPF, either!

 

[majorwager]

Cincy,
Not to distract, but is it you who has a long backhoe, similar to my own? How is it working out, if it was you of course, and mine is much smoother at lower rpm's, w/ no compromise in efficiency/production.

 

[Lelandwelds]

They are exempt. There are also a whole bunch of Tier IV Interim machines that automatically meet Tier IV Final.

The biggest problem I see here on TBN is that there is a perception that the new Tier IV Final machines are special and everything before that was Tier III. But Tier III only applied to higher horsepower machines and only for a limited number of years. Most other compact tractors have been Tier IV Interim for many years. This chart has been helpful in separating things out:

For some reason, the horsepower cutoff is hazy among manufacturers, and it seems like more than the conversion/rounding from 19 kW to 25.479 HP. There are plenty of machines that are slightly over 19kW but meet the EPA cutoff for Tier IV Final without any emissions controls. It's a mystery unless there is some RPM limit that holds them back. For example, the Kubota L2501 has the old 34HP L3400 engine and it's simply RPM-governed to stay below Tier IV limits. How that is legal is something between Kubota and the EPA I guess. But it's a clever way for Kubota to sell a powerful torquey tractor that doesn't need any emissions controls.

Nice chart. I am one of those that thought all the Tier 4 problems and regs just recently started. That may be because until very recently I had zero interest in acquiring any new equipment especially a tractor.

All the hand wringing, complaining, and (i need a better word) whining is new to me.

 

[s219]

My Kubota is tier lll, A or B, not sure

What model Kubota do you have that is Tier III ?

 

[Btown]

Tier IV doesn't say how emissions requirements/levels are to be met. Some manufacturers, Mahindra being one I know of (or did at the time I was shopping for a larger tractor), boasted of meeting Tier IV w/o a DPF. A DPF is just a "strategy"/system used to meet Tier IV requirements.

Smaller engines, from how I'm gathering/reading, seem to produce less soot and that this can be dealt with without DPFs. This is my understanding. I have not delved into the true FACTS because I was not shopping for a smaller tractor.

Regardless, if an engine is to meet Tier IV it is tested and verified to meet Tier IV emissions. How it's done differs (and for some, as VW did, it is "met" using "interesting" means).

VW was in trouble for NOX gases, that it. Don’t know why they did it some of their cars had DEF fluid, all it would do is use a little more than it did. It makes no sense why they did this. But after this they did emission test on diesels in Europe and VW had the cleanest ones. Who would of thought. All brands in Europe cheat, but it was allowed under the law. I had a 2013 Passat TDI it was a very nice car. It was large, had a big trunk and got 50 MPG on the highway. I would still own it but VW offered me too much money for it for the buyback. I had it 4 years put 53,000 miles on it and lost $4,000 from my purchase price and I bought it brand new. If you know any other vehicles you can do that with let me know.

 

[majorwager]

What model Kubota do you have that is Tier III ?

S219

Stage lllb and interim tier 4 were identical in emission requirements.

 

[Deerherd]

All you need to know about servicing your Kubota DPF but we’re afraid to ask......

http://www.kubotaengine.com/assets/...ter Handling Manual_Sept_2013_9Y111-07332.pdf

When I was looking for a Mini-Ex, I went to the Kubota dealer to try one out. It was a cold January day and right after starting it up it went into regeneration mode. Forty five minutes later I left because it just kept going. They had to tow it inside and heat up the machine to get it to finish. Not a good showing and not sure how this could be attributed to “90% of problems being operator error”.

I ended up with a Bobcat that doesn’t have a DPF. I don’t have to run it at high rpm which makes for a much smoother machine IMHO.

 

[CincyFlyer]

Cincy,
Not to distract, but is it you who has a long backhoe, similar to my own? How is it working out, if it was you of course, and mine is much smoother at lower rpm's, w/ no compromise in efficiency/production.

Nope, my says "Mahindra", but is built in Korea.