tipping

[Bird]

I am outraged that the manufactures do not provide clear, precise information on the point of no return. It is very simple to calculate the center of gravity and for various configurations (FEL down, FEL up with the max. permissible load, etc., etc.) the slope at which roll over will take place. I can not believe the manufacturers are not required to provide this. I am a single engine plane pilot and perhaps that is my perspective; you ALWAYS know where your center of gravity is before you take off with a bunch of fat passengers (smile) to ensure you are with a prescibed set of limits. I am also an engineer so maybe I am overly **** about this topic....But I feel strongly that I am correct! My 2 cents.

I think I can understand your feelings about it, but, personally, I'd have to disagree. And yes, I'm familiar with the aircraft perspective, also, but there's some big differences between airplanes and tractors. I'd never be able to cover all of them, but
1) you had to get a license to legally operate that airplane, but anyone can climb on a tractor,
2) there are a limited number of "accessories" or customization you can add to that airplane, and each has probably been evaluated by the FAA, instructions provided, etc. Who knows what we might come up with to add onto our tractors? Homemade or store bought canopies, lights, something to carry the chain saw, toolboxes, and on and on. And that doesn't even include the front end loader and wide variety of implements you may or may not have on the 3-point.
3) you load that airplane on the ground; once underway and in the air, you don't add any weight, and you don't drastically redistribute that weight (yeah, I know you can redistribute it to some degree). The weight and the distribution on the tractor may change many times, especially if you are using a front end loader, raising and lowering it, picking up half a bucket full one time and full bucket full the next time; light material, then heavy material.
4) so you hit a little bump in that airplane or bank a little too steeply. You probably are high enough to have a chance to recover. When that tractor starts over, recovery can happen, but it's not too likely.
5) if the manufacturer of the tractor says it can handle a certain maximum side to side tilt; say 20 degrees, we know that some operators will try to use it on a 20 degree slope without considering what implements or added accessories the tractor has on it, and if they happen to have one rear wheel run over a small stone or stick, or fall into a tiny dip in the ground, they'll sue the manufacturer if they survive the roll over.
6) how do the prices compare on your airplane vs. your tractor? More detailed information is nice, but it also costs money.
7) how much training, and at what cost, did it take to get a pilot's license? Would you want to go through the same thing to get a tractor operator's license?

Yep, I wish my car, pickup, and tractors had all the gauges that many airplanes have. I like having that information. But I'll also be the first to admit it just isn't practical and I really don't want the price of the vehicles to increase enough to pay for it.

 

[johnk]

I don't think the mfg's can give people precise rollover point because of too many variables. Then a lawsuit when they are wrong. They just tell you be careful and wear your seatbelt....It's all about accountability.......

 

[Stargazer]

Well the only tipping I hope to do is with the bottle of Mogan David wine that I put in the snow bank to get good and cold while doing the drive/street 3 blocks of sidewalks for neighbors and the trac is back home parked/refueled ready for next storm (tarping waits for next day). Yes I have a tilt meter also.

Pat R

 

[Bird]

the only tipping I hope to do is with the bottle of Mogan David wine

That wouldn't be Mad Dog 20/20 would it?

 

[gone2dawgs]

I think I can understand your feelings about it, but, personally, I'd have to disagree. And yes, I'm familiar with the aircraft perspective, also, but there's some big differences between airplanes and tractors. I'd never be able to cover all of them, but
1) you had to get a license to legally operate that airplane, but anyone can climb on a tractor,
2) there are a limited number of "accessories" or customization you can add to that airplane, and each has probably been evaluated by the FAA, instructions provided, etc. Who knows what we might come up with to add onto our tractors? Homemade or store bought canopies, lights, something to carry the chain saw, toolboxes, and on and on. And that doesn't even include the front end loader and wide variety of implements you may or may not have on the 3-point.
3) you load that airplane on the ground; once underway and in the air, you don't add any weight, and you don't drastically redistribute that weight (yeah, I know you can redistribute it to some degree). The weight and the distribution on the tractor may change many times, especially if you are using a front end loader, raising and lowering it, picking up half a bucket full one time and full bucket full the next time; light material, then heavy material.
4) so you hit a little bump in that airplane or bank a little too steeply. You probably are high enough to have a chance to recover. When that tractor starts over, recovery can happen, but it's not too likely.
5) if the manufacturer of the tractor says it can handle a certain maximum side to side tilt; say 20 degrees, we know that some operators will try to use it on a 20 degree slope without considering what implements or added accessories the tractor has on it, and if they happen to have one rear wheel run over a small stone or stick, or fall into a tiny dip in the ground, they'll sue the manufacturer if they survive the roll over.
6) how do the prices compare on your airplane vs. your tractor? More detailed information is nice, but it also costs money.
7) how much training, and at what cost, did it take to get a pilot's license? Would you want to go through the same thing to get a tractor operator's license?

Yep, I wish my car, pickup, and tractors had all the gauges that many airplanes have. I like having that information. But I'll also be the first to admit it just isn't practical and I really don't want the price of the vehicles to increase enough to pay for it.

Bird,

I can not argue with any of the 7 points you mentioned. You are correct on each and every item you discussed. I guess it all comes down to money. As you pointed out, we sure do not want to price liability into tractors since nobody could afford one. Thank you for replying to my emotionally charged rantings. BUT...I still feel there is something that can be done to improve tractor safety with respect to roll overs. I am new to tractor and airplane operations (8 hours on my brand new L3130, 210 hours in a Cessna 172). Considering roll overs are the number one killer of farmers, I am not content to accept a continuation of the past. I just think there is always a better idea somewhere, concerning this utmost topic. But I do not know what it is.

Sincerely,

gone2dawgs

 

[Bird]

I am not content to accept a continuation of the past. I just think there is always a better idea somewhere, concerning this utmost topic. But I do not know what it is.

I agree. Just as aircraft and automobile safety has evolved, so has tractor safety. The tricycle front end may be entirely a thing of the past, although it used to be common. I guess ROPS are now standard equipment when they were virtually unheard of just a few years ago. So it's gotten better, and I'm confident that someone will come up with additional improvements to safety, but just as you said, I do not know what it will be. Discussing the matter on forums such as TBN, though, may help lead someone to better ideas.

 

[cp1969]

I would LIKE TO THINK I would loose traction on a slope before the front would rotate up and over.

Not true. The front end is amazingly easy to lift. When facing uphill, all the weight transfer is going to the rear wheels. It's a very dangerous, unstable situation that can bite you in an instant. One of my high school friends flipped a Super C Farmall over backwards and was pinned under it for about eight hours. He eventually died from his injuries but not until he had undergone double amputations for gangrene(sp?). He was pulling a hay wagon, crossing a creek and that tractor/wagon combination had made that crossing many times before so it is unknown to anybody what caused it to go over that day.

Bird's advice about backing up steep grades is one you don't want to have to learn for yourself.

 

[Stargazer]

Actually it is a black raspberry that I like but not as good as some "fortified" wine a since passed away friend used to make (cherry&apple& hospital grade alochol) Warms you right up after the coverall/boots are put away.

Pat R

 

[Bird]

Actually it is a black raspberry that I like but not as good as some "fortified" wine a since passed away friend used to make (cherry&apple& hospital grade alochol) Warms you right up after the coverall/boots are put away.

Pat R

Pat, I just had to ask. I don't guess I've ever tasted any Mogan David wines. Forty to forty-five years ago, and for how long before that I don't know, Thunderbird, a white wine, was the wine of choice of the homeless winos in Dallas. I tried some Thunderbird one time; I think kerosene might taste better. But then 25 or 30 years ago, MD 20/20 replaced Thunderbird as the wine of choice of the winos. I'm not sure why, although I understand MD 20/20 may taste better and cost about the same. I thought both of them were 20% alcohol, although the links show them to be a little less.

 

[SPYDERLK]

I agree. Just as aircraft and automobile safety has evolved, so has tractor safety. The tricycle front end may be entirely a thing of the past, although it used to be common. I guess ROPS are now standard equipment when they were virtually unheard of just a few years ago. So it's gotten better, and I'm confident that someone will come up with additional improvements to safety, but just as you said, I do not know what it will be. Discussing the matter on forums such as TBN, though, may help lead someone to better ideas.

Load sensing at each wheel oughta do it. The easiest and cheapest would be real time comparative pressure measurements at all wheels. Perhaps not quite sensitive enuf but a big inexpensive step the right direction.
Larry

 

[Bird]

That sounds good, Larry, but I don't know enough about that kind of technology so I'd have two questions: (1) how expensive would it be, and (2) if the weight dropped on one wheel, or one side, would you have a warning soon enough to react and prevent a rollover? Those things happen very quickly.

 

[SPYDERLK]

Bird, at the level where the operator takes responsibility to observe iffy situations and exercise prudence, this could be quite effective as a warning, and cheap to institute. A hobbiest with substantive knowledge could do it with transducers and a laptop. The computer would be necessary because a fast processor would be needed to debounce the wildly fluctuating signals and weight their relative importance properly. Done professionaly and spread over mass production it could be just a few hundred $ per tractor.
The problem is pressure changes are not a big signal and it is possible in certain threatening situations to have them prevented or their meaning camouflaged. After all we are sensing force be internal pressure - we have left out Area. This can be dealt with on a flat surface, whether level or tilted, but incorporating the real effects of irregularities is tuf to impossible. - - Consider the case where the downhill tire goes down into a trough that cups it nicely, while the uphill tire rides up on a pointy rock.
What we need is a direct measurement of ground force applied by each wheel. Load sensing bearings exist. Im not sure of their suitability in high and extreme variable load conditions. Would be nice. Think about knowing the magnitude and direction of load on each axle all the time. More than a few hundred dollars worth!
Larry

 

[johnk]

What ever happened to common sense and and a little brainstorming. Everyone relies too much on technology now a days. If I had to worry about every little iota of info just operating my tractor I wouldn't have bought on. Common sense is better than anything learned in a book. I'd hate to live in a state of Paranoia before I attempted anything. Thats what Lawyers are for..

 

[gone2dawgs]

What ever happened to common sense and and a little brainstorming. Everyone relies too much on technology now a days. If I had to worry about every little iota of info just operating my tractor I wouldn't have bought on. Common sense is better than anything learned in a book. I'd hate to live in a state of Paranoia before I attempted anything. Thats what Lawyers are for..

I am a newby to tractors, but I quickly realized common sense is not working well. I live in a relatively rural area of central VA (lots of hills). I was amazed to find out that 10 people have died in my county during the last 16 years, or was it 16 people during the last 10 years. Whatever, they were all very experienced farmers driving old tractors (no ROPS, seatbelt). Since there are not many people where I live that type of statistic makes me conclude that common sense is not sufficient.

 

[Volfandt]

Whats the word?
Thunderbird.
Whats the price?
60 twice.
Who drinks the most?
Them wino folks.
Or something like that

Ripple was also the drink of choice for the wino's whilst MD 20/20 was for the younger crowd.

Tried all 3 whilst serving this fine country back in the day and they all 3 were nasty nasty nasty

 

[johnk]

gone2dawgs,

1 thing is very clear and certain. Use your BOTH your ROPS and Seatbelt at all times just in case...........Tread SLOWLY and use your head.. Happy tractoring..

 

[KennyV]

Common sense is still better than engineering and litigating… There should be a culling of the herd, natural selection will always prevail. If you think you are not capable to make rational choices, don’t do it… if you loose the ability to make rational choices, no amount of technical engineered interference will keep you from the fatal mistake you are looking to make…
Volfandt, I must be a bit older than you, or prices were lower in KS, as I remember it as 40 twice… Although it is bad stuff at any price. KennyV.

 

[N80]

I may be deluding myself, but I feel that after a year and a half I have a pretty good idea of what my L4400 is doing. I have lots of hills. Lots of uneven ground. I'm pretty cautious. Sphincter works properly and I think I bring some common sense to the matter. I don't have a tilt meter and I don't want one. I'm not knocking them, they just don't suit my personality and I think that is a big part of it. I would either trust it too implicitly or not trust it at all, so for me it just wouldn't be useful. But that's just me.

I think the important thing is to slowly find out where your comfort level is. The less 'feel' you have for your tractor, the slower and more cautious you need to be. And every implement and accessory you add changes that feel. The FEL is a major variable. Weight in the bucket gives even more variables.

I've only really puckered once. I now know what that feels like. I didn't roll, but now that I know what my pucker limit is, I don't push it that far.

I think you've heard great advice and some of this will be redundant but:

Always keep ROPS up and seatbelt on. (In the end,this will save you from most of the other stupid things you or I might do).

Fill your rear tires.

Consider additional weight on the 3 pt hitch if you have a loader on.

Always keep the bucket as low as possible.

Avoid crossing slopes at all costs.

Go down steep hills in THE LOWEST GEAR. Do not go down hill with the clutch pedal in and using brakes only. Let compression keep your speed down and add braking as necessary.

Keep it in 4wd to give braking to front wheels.

If you are moving and begin to roll, steer into the roll, not away from it. I am quite certain I do not have the reflexes for this to be useful for me.

Have a cell phone with you.

Oh, and widen the rears if you have R1's. This is described in the L4400 manual.

 

[johnk]

Nicely put. All things you metioned should be in the memory banks as the tractor is put into gear and slowly nudged forward....