Oil & Fuel Tips / Techniques to changing Hyd Oil

[woodlandfarms]

Lots of threads going on on Oil, so I wanted to hear how everyone deals with the Hydraulic oil system. Any and all tips welcome. Especiallly intrigued in how you purge your hydraulic lines of old oil. Anyone using outside filtering systems (Ken is building one, Someone put one on their PTO but no pictures). How do you deal with Sludge buildup.

Anyway. You get the drift....

Carl

 

[Barryh]

Lots of threads going on on Oil, so I wanted to hear how everyone deals with the Hydraulic oil system. Any and all tips welcome. Especiallly intrigued in how you purge your hydraulic lines of old oil. Anyone using outside filtering systems (Ken is building one, Someone put one on their PTO but no pictures). How do you deal with Sludge buildup.

Anyway. You get the drift....

Carl

Great idea, a very beneficial thread for those of us that don't have a clue, and are weak on the inner workings of hydraulics, which seem to control every aspect and function of the PT. To me seems every model has a slightly different valve setup along with different ports, and hose placement. Pictures of these components would really help me understand a lot more. Especially since I am toying with and looking into making a light duty mini hoe in the next month or so.

 

[MossRoad]

I've had my PT425 for 6 years. It has about 300 hours on it. The hydraulic fluid in it is still the same motor oil that came from the factory. When I check it, it still looks clean and clear. I've never fished for sludge in the tank, and don't want to stir up sediment. I think that since there is not combustion going on, the motor oil will be fine as a hydraulic fluid for years and years, as long as I do not allow it to become contaminated. I cannot think of a reason to change the hydraulic fluid out, unless I can prove that it will do my equipment any good. It starts well in the cold, but does run hot in the summer months when mowing, and I can detect a bit of hill climbing power loss at those temps. I'm thinking more effiecient cooling may do more good than changing to a different weight hydraulic fluid.

 

[J_J]

Great idea, a very beneficial thread for those of us that don't have a clue, and are weak on the inner workings of hydraulics, which seem to control every aspect and function of the PT. To me seems every model has a slightly different valve setup along with different ports, and hose placement. Pictures of these components would really help me understand a lot more. Especially since I am toying with and looking into making a light duty mini hoe in the next month or so.

Are you talking about purge the old with the new oil? Or you talking about purging the system to a dry hose and valve state. In the case of purging the old oil with the new oil, just drain every system you can open . and run the new oil into the system. What little is left over will not make a big difference. To purge /clean the entire system is a major operation. What you are talking about here is trying to clean out as much sediment as you can by removing hoses and cleaning them very much like a gun barrel. Just pull swabs through until they come out clean. Most people will not go to that extreme. That add on using a 10 micron high pressure filter to the PTO circuit is a very good idea. You will probably filter about 10 times or more the volume of hydraulic fluid that you are filtering now. On my Dixie Chopper, they told me I could add Mobile one synthetic fluid to the 10w-40 motor oil that I have been using as a hydraulic fluid. I have always been curious if they mix up well. I really don't know if there is any set answer for the machines that use hydraulic type fluid. Most people don't know if their manuals and diagrams are correct or have enough detail to fully explain how things work.

 

[BobRip]

I was told that if you mess with the wheel motor circuit you should put on a 3 micron filter. If I were you, I would just drain what I can from the drain plug with the tractor tilted towards that side and then refil. Also change the hydraulic filter at the same time. That changes another quart. I did this and now use Mobil 1 15W50. I have much less torque drop off when hot than before. However the original oil was 5W30 and I think the new machines use 10W40 from the factory, so yours may not improve as much. I am much happier with this change, but have done no measurements.

 

[toy]

Lots of threads going on on Oil, so I wanted to hear how everyone deals with the Hydraulic oil system. Any and all tips welcome. Especiallly intrigued in how you purge your hydraulic lines of old oil. Anyone using outside filtering systems (Ken is building one, Someone put one on their PTO but no pictures). How do you deal with Sludge buildup.

Anyway. You get the drift....

Carl

You probably have a reason for intending on completly purging the oil out of your pt, but just in case you are thinking on changing the hydroulic oil as you would the engine oil you don't have to do that. While I was at Tazwell buying mine they said just to add oil as necessary to maintain the proper oil level, and change filters as recommended for the machine. Moss road said that he still has the oil that came in his in the hydroulic tank as of now I intend on doing the same thing. In one of JJs posts he talked about putting a filter in his pto and turning it on and filtering his oil occasionally. As I understand what he was talking about was to hook it where you would hook up the mower. That way when you were filtering the oil it would go to the filter through the filter and straight back to the tank, when I read his suggestion I felt he had a good idea. Moss Road has a thread that documents the procedure for doing the fifty hour service on his machine that you might find interesting to look at . If I was wanting to get all the oil out of my machine I would extend all of my cylinders cut the machine off and drain the tank take the hoses off of the cylinders and manually push the cylinders back in and any quick connect I would take off and crack the other end of the hose to let it get air to drain. That is how I would do it but I wouldn't do it.

 

[Barryh]

Are you talking about purge the old with the new oil? Or you talking about purging the system to a dry hose and valve state. In the case of purging the old oil with the new oil, just drain every system you can open . and run the new oil into the system. What little is left over will not make a big difference. To purge /clean the entire system is a major operation. What you are talking about here is trying to clean out as much sediment as you can by removing hoses and cleaning them very much like a gun barrel. Just pull swabs through until they come out clean. Most people will not go to that extreme. That add on using a 10 micron high pressure filter to the PTO circuit is a very good idea. You will probably filter about 10 times or more the volume of hydraulic fluid that you are filtering now. On my Dixie Chopper, they told me I could add Mobile one synthetic fluid to the 10w-40 motor oil that I have been using as a hydraulic fluid. I have always been curious if they mix up well. I really don't know if there is any set answer for the machines that use hydraulic type fluid. Most people don't know if their manuals and diagrams are correct or have enough detail to fully explain how things work.

J.J. you’ll have to excuse me. I have a bad habit of just rambling on here at times while in thought. Kind of just thinking out loud so to speak. What came to mind when this thread popped up for me, and I know this is a little off topic, was when I put in either a new set of three valves, or seeing if there is some kind of extra port on the existing valve setup to add one valve, for my Mini Hoe. That’s when I even get to that point. I would guess I just bleed the hose's back into the tank, like I did when changing the filter.

With my limited knowledge. I was just wondering how I would go about it, when I do decide on a valve arrangement. How would I purge the system with the least chance of problems of air in the system, along with the new hoses ect. I'm not looking to reinvent the wheel here, or get too complicated. I just want to make a working Functioning Mini Hoe.

Obviously, I have to do some research on my own. I don’t really expect anyone here to talk me through the whole thing. I do need to get a basic simple manual or book on how hydraulics work. So, I was just curious as to what will be involved when I do add the set of valves and hook up my Mini Hoe?

 

[woodlandfarms]

Hmmm My aluminum foil is getting thin. What I was getting at is that I never had the good fortune to go to Tazwell for the maintenance class. Frankly, until last night I was wondering where the drain plug was. And we all know the shop manual is about as thorough as a Chinese tractor.

So, I was really looking for the basic tricks. My tractor has a baffle, I assume everyone else does as well, so how do you get all your oil out? How do you deal with 20 gallons of oil (what size pan is going to fit under the drain that holds that much). How do you purge the system and why. how do you deal with residual oil in the hoses.

Two side notes. Supposedly my tractor came with new oil. I have to confirm this with PT. But it led a life of neglect prior to my purchase so I have gone through 2 filters in 10 hours of work. The third filter has held up well so I think whatever was going on is now gone or diminished. I could not cut through the oil filters to see what was jamming them up, but I still have them so when I have patience, or someones spiffy technique in mind, I will cut them open to explore.

Second side note is that Terry told me to disconnect the engine (a clip of wires at the rear of the engine near the throttle control) and turn the engine over to purge. Well, my engine started right up. I immediately shut down, called Terry, and he was baffled. But, as this is a hydaulic system, why would it hurt to be purging the oil and air with an engine that is running. The oil is still cooling the system and the bearings of the motors are still protected..

Anyway... But I do appreciate all the advice so far...

Carl

 

[MuncyBob]

I'm not sure what wires you are talking about to disconnect to purge air, I simply disconnect the spark plugs and then turn over the engine a few tomes to purge...has worked fine every time.

 

[KentT]

I'm not sure what wires you are talking about to disconnect to purge air, I simply disconnect the spark plugs and then turn over the engine a few tomes to purge...has worked fine every time.

He probably had one heck of a time trying to disconnect the spark plug wires on a diesel engine, tho...

Carl, he is correct that the procedure for bleeding the system on a gas-engined PT calls for unplugging the spark plug wires and cranking the engine with the starter (in about 10 second intervals) until you get a steady stream of oil coming out the port on the charge pump...

As I understand it, you never want the main hydro (i.e. tram) pump to run without oil in it for lubrication. So, you make sure that you've "primed" the charge pump (the filter is on the inlet side of the charge pump) and bled all the air out before you actually start the engine. Then, the charge pump will immediately provide enough oil to the tram pump so that it is fully lubricated...

When I changed the oil in mine, I simply did as someone described above. I made sure that it was warmed up and the oil at "operating temp" then I jacked up the left side of the tractor (ie. opposite the drain plug) and drained all the oil out. I filled it with oil, replaced the filter and bled the system -- then topped the oil off. I did NOT open any lines anywhere to drain them.

Having seen the microscopic metal particles and sludge that drained out of mine, I plan on either:

a) changing the oil about every 500 hours or so, or

b) putting a high-pressure filter on the system so I can filter it better

 

[J_J]

J.J. you’ll have to excuse me. I have a bad habit of just rambling on here at times while in thought. Kind of just thinking out loud so to speak. What came to mind when this thread popped up for me, and I know this is a little off topic, was when I put in either a new set of three valves, or seeing if there is some kind of extra port on the existing valve setup to add one valve, for my Mini Hoe. That’s when I even get to that point. I would guess I just bleed the hose's back into the tank, like I did when changing the filter.

With my limited knowledge. I was just wondering how I would go about it, when I do decide on a valve arrangement. How would I purge the system with the least chance of problems of air in the system, along with the new hoses ect. I'm not looking to reinvent the wheel here, or get too complicated. I just want to make a working Functioning Mini Hoe.

Obviously, I have to do some research on my own. I don’t really expect anyone here to talk me through the whole thing. I do need to get a basic simple manual or book on how hydraulics work. So, I was just curious as to what will be involved when I do add the set of valves and hook up my Mini Hoe?

Barry

Valves and cylinders purge themselves when you apply pressure. The air is pushed through the system, and back to tank. On the cylinders, just run them through several cycles, and they should be good to go. Bleeding air from pumps and motors is most important. Most pumps and motors use the fluid that they are pumping for their own lubrication. That's why you turn them slow until there is fluid through out the pumps and motors. Some one mentioned in a previous post about pulling the wires to keep the engine from running, but the engine started running. If that happen to a pump or motor that had a lot of air in the system, he could have destroyed the pump or motor. This is not technical stuff, just plain good old common sense.

 

[Barryh]

Barry

Valves and cylinders purge themselves when you apply pressure. The air is pushed through the system, and back to tank. On the cylinders, just run them through several cycles, and they should be good to go. Bleeding air from pumps and motors is most important. Most pumps and motors use the fluid that they are pumping for their own lubrication. That's why you turn them slow until there is fluid through out the pumps and motors. Some one mentioned in a previous post about pulling the wires to keep the engine from running, but the engine started running. If that happen to a pump or motor that had a lot of air in the system, he could have destroyed the pump or motor. This is not technical stuff, just plain good old common sense.

Thanks for the explanation, that makes sense. I don't want to take away from Woodlandfarms thread here, sounds like he really needs some help. Once I get to the point of install, for the valves and hose's, I may bring this up again on a thread I already started, and have you double check the boxes for me. I have a great running PT. The last thing I want to do is have to fix what’s not broken. .

 

[toy]

Hmmm My aluminum foil is getting thin. What I was getting at is that I never had the good fortune to go to Tazwell for the maintenance class. Frankly, until last night I was wondering where the drain plug was. And we all know the shop manual is about as thorough as a Chinese tractor.

So, I was really looking for the basic tricks. My tractor has a baffle, I assume everyone else does as well, so how do you get all your oil out? How do you deal with 20 gallons of oil (what size pan is going to fit under the drain that holds that much). How do you purge the system and why. how do you deal with residual oil in the hoses.

Two side notes. Supposedly my tractor came with new oil. I have to confirm this with PT. But it led a life of neglect prior to my purchase so I have gone through 2 filters in 10 hours of work. The third filter has held up well so I think whatever was going on is now gone or diminished. I could not cut through the oil filters to see what was jamming them up, but I still have them so when I have patience, or someones spiffy technique in mind, I will cut them open to explore.

Second side note is that Terry told me to disconnect the engine (a clip of wires at the rear of the engine near the throttle control) and turn the engine over to purge. Well, my engine started right up. I immediately shut down, called Terry, and he was baffled. But, as this is a hydaulic system, why would it hurt to be purging the oil and air with an engine that is running. The oil is still cooling the system and the bearings of the motors are still protected..

Anyway... But I do appreciate all the advice so far...

Carl

I know what your intent is now and why, I beleive anyway. When you are changing filters on your hydroulic system you probably already know to fill the filter with oil and let it set for a little while so the oil can soak into the filter and then recaping it off before installing it . That will cut down in the bleeding or purging of air some . You don't want to run the pumps[ with engine running] with air in the system to do so is hard on the pumps you just want to bump it on and off until your purge hose is putting out a steady stream of oil. Having the system warm when you start draining the tank is a good idea and and tilting the machine so that the drain hole is lower is a good idea as the other posters have said. Since you said that you had to change the filter out twice in a short period of time would suggest that the oil was contaminated but since the third one is holding up well you might have the system cleaned up well enough. To evacuate the oil out of all the system including the cylinders would have to be a judgment call on your part since you can see the condition of oil. I beleive you said that it was supposed to have new oil in it maybe they never cleaned the tank out before refilling [can't imagine changing the oil out and not cleaning the tank out before adding the new oil] they may have stirred up a lot of sediments that caused you the problem. Hope you get it lined out satisfactorily and as I said Mr has a good thread on doing the 50 hour service. Can you take pictures of you removing the spark plugs, having a gas model I sometimes forget about there being a difference in the machines for those that have deisels. A thread on the 50 hour service for those that have deisels would be good for a reference for those that have just gotten a deisel machine if someone would do it.

 

[cqaigy2]

Can you take pictures of you removing the spark plugs, having a gas model I sometimes forget about there being a difference in the machines for those that have deisels. A thread on the 50 hour service for those that have deisels would be good for a reference for those that have just gotten a deisel machine if someone would do it.

I was kinda wondering about that too. I know on some diesels you can bleed compression.

 

[woodlandfarms]

Jeeze. I hope you guys don't think it was me who said I was removing my sparkplugs. It was not. I don't have sparkplugs. Heck, I don't have glow plugs on this tractor. I just said I was told by terry to remove a clip of wires close to the throttle that is supposed to kill the fuel system to the tractor. It is a grey 8 or 10 pin connector. And it did not have any effect. The engine started right up to the dismay of me and Terry.

How does anyone with a Diesel PT bleed their system? When you turn your engine over to bleed the system does it start up?

Carl

 

[MuncyBob]

The plug mention was mine, didn't realize you were talking about the diesels I guess.

 

[kjm3232]

[How does anyone with a Diesel PT bleed their system? When you turn your engine over to bleed the system does it start up?

I've only had to change the filter once on my 1430. As i recall, when i disconnected the grey plug the engine cranked but did not turn over in order to bleed the air out. Hopefully someone who has replaced the filter more often than me will chime in as well

 

[J_J]

Jeeze. I hope you guys don't think it was me who said I was removing my sparkplugs. It was not. I don't have sparkplugs. Heck, I don't have glow plugs on this tractor. I just said I was told by terry to remove a clip of wires close to the throttle that is supposed to kill the fuel system to the tractor. It is a grey 8 or 10 pin connector. And it did not have any effect. The engine started right up to the dismay of me and Terry.

How does anyone with a Diesel PT bleed their system? When you turn your engine over to bleed the system does it start up?

Carl

Perhaps you can turn the engine over , with a remote starter switch to activate the starter, or use a wire from the battery to the starter, start terminal leave the key switch off. Let us know if this works.

 

[J_J]

Lots of threads going on on Oil, so I wanted to hear how everyone deals with the Hydraulic oil system. Any and all tips welcome. Especiallly intrigued in how you purge your hydraulic lines of old oil. Anyone using outside filtering systems (Ken is building one, Someone put one on their PTO but no pictures). How do you deal with Sludge buildup.

Anyway. You get the drift....

Carl

I really don't think you are going to get the sludge buildup in the hydraulic system, unless you never change the filter. allow dust and dirt to get in the tank, and let water in there. As David said, his oil appeared to be clean. I think most systems OK. If it looks dirty, it probably. If it smells burnt, that means that some abuse has been going on. If it is milky looking, it has picked up some water some where.

If you are just changing oil for the same kind of oil , just drain what you can, and add the new oil . If you really want to flush the system, and get all the sludge out, and purge the system, you are undertaking a large operation. That means every hose, motor, pump, radiator, and tank. You probably will not have sludge in pump and motors, because sludge is usually heavier, and it settles to the bottom. If you stir up that sludge, you will cause more problems for your self and the machine. Those floating particles are the ones that you want to filter. Do you also realize, that it is the particles smaller than 10 microns that causes the wear on the pumps and motors. The reason is that the smaller particles get between the sliding parts of the pump and motors, and grind away. That is why I have suggested using a 1 micron bypass filter to get that small stuff, and by doing that, it should give some more longevity to the Pt hydraulic circuits. On some of the older Pt's, you can not unbolt the top if the hydraulic tank. I only have a filler opening on my 1445 hyd tank.

If you are going to change out to synthetics, a little bit of oil probably will not make any difference. It only hurts more, dollar wise when you have a leak with a tank full of synthetic oil, compared to motor oil.

 

[menchhofer]

[How does anyone with a Diesel PT bleed their system? When you turn your engine over to bleed the system does it start up?

I've only had to change the filter once on my 1430. As i recall, when i disconnected the grey plug the engine cranked but did not turn over in order to bleed the air out. Hopefully someone who has replaced the filter more often than me will chime in as well

I have changed filters on my 1430 diesel numerous times and yes the engine does start. I simply just turn the key off and on a few times and then let the engine run until the air is released from the tube to the tank. I do not know if this is correct or not but it works so far.