Tired Ford 3000 engine......

Kaliburz · Apr 15, 2006

Well, gave her a go this morning after a high/mid 30's night. It took about 5 good tries to get her to get going. The initial 15 seconds of heating the manual suggested didn't work. Had to go 4 or 5 times and just held the jumper I made in place for over 30 seconds. (I also cheated, put Cetane boost in a few days ago in the tank.... /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif)

I worked on the wiring for the heater today. I think I'll wire an "idiot" light so that one knows the thing is working ....

Soundguy · Apr 16, 2006

Be carefull you don't burn the plug out...

Soundguy

Kaliburz · Apr 16, 2006

( Be carefull you don't burn the plug out...

Soundguy )

I will. (I already have an "extra" one....since I bought a replacment before testing the current one).

Book says 15 seconds on, crank. If no start, try another 10 seconds and then heat while starting......

Kaliburz · May 10, 2006

Well, the compression test is FINALY done (the shop was busy, so took some time to get to me).

The IT shop manual says for a diesel 3000, the range is 420-500 psi. My little motor is putting out 300psi- that's wet or dry. Number 1 and 2 was the only cylinders he did since someone, at some point, replaced an injector stud w/ a larger one....he couldn't get the adapter over it w/out drilling the adapter bolt hole bigger. He did say that traditionally, the last cylinder in Ford tend to be the worst out of the lot...

I was there helping (turning the key on) and the mechanic sort of metioned that the cranking RPM's seemed low, but didn't think it would affect it too much. After getting it back together, he got a first hand look on how hard it was to start....even w/ the cold start. The shop manager (who he called), thinks it needs a valve job since the dry/wet test was the 'same'. Will have to meet w/ him to see what he thinks... (mechanic's aren't suppose to give an opinion or options.....tha'ts the service manager's job.....)

I'm gonna weigh my options.... the idea of a 'newer & bigger' engine would cost way too much (having dealer installed that is). The engine complete would be about $5500 and guestimating the install for RR....labor could be in the $2000 range (shop rate is around $60-69)...the engine IS up there about 12 feet in the air.

Thinking of doing a valve job and an in frame (roll in new crank bearings and just replacing the rod bearings). A buddy at work can do it....he's our mechanic (diesel mechanic). The other mechanic asked how it runs after getting it started. I said it runs fine. No white smoke, just hard to start. He tends to think it might be a combination of issues 1) valves might be bad 2) injector pump timing or pump it self 3) the injectors themself.

The entire package deal picker and other equipment was just under 17K. And I don't like the idea of dumping 7K+ into it right now. As my buddy said, it runs okay when it starts & it doesn't burn oil, so rings are "okay".

I've got untill early Aug to get what I want to get done....then I have to be prepping it for harvest- putting belts on and checking the bearings for the convayors. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

(Oh, the guy also got #3 injector in funky. It started leaking after it was reinstalled...and that's the one w/ the bigger stud too. Wasn't the fitting, but looked like it was dribbling out of the hole it was shoved into......) /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Soundguy · May 10, 2006

( My little motor is putting out 300psi- that's wet or dry )

Classic valve issue..

Soundguy

Kaliburz · May 10, 2006

The shop manager said to the mechanic on the phone yesterday- must be the valves. A head job is "nothing". Take it off and bring to shop. If I'm crazy, replace all the intake/exaust springs and valves...... I suppose that it should be under 1200. I suppoe more will be known after the head is taken off and one can "look at the cylinders.

Kaliburz · May 27, 2006

Well, this week I'm gonna open up the engine for head work. I'll know more after it's opened up.

But I wanted to ask more info......

1) Engine- I've been told that "sometimes" when head work is done (making it tight), the rings below are the weak link. Usually people end up doing inframes, so I've been told (if the bottom is that bad). Is this something I should worry about?

/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Thanks....

Kaliburz · May 27, 2006

Well, this week I'm gonna open up the engine for head work. I'll know more after it's opened up.

But I wanted to ask more info......

1) Engine- I've been told that "sometimes" when head work is done (making it tight), the rings below are the weak link. Usually people end up doing inframes, so I've been told (if the bottom is that bad). Is this something I should worry about?

/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Thanks....

Soundguy · May 28, 2006

Ideally, all rebuilds would renew sleaves, rings, valves and bearings.. But.. just as a fact of life.. it's quite common to open a working engine up and just do a valve job, or drop rings in.

Your call on what you want to get into.. but.. you could always do the valve job, and then comp test again.. and if the rings were bad, all you are out is a head gasket, and also the price for the new rings, and a few incedentals like 'test' oil.. etc.

Without the valves good for the test.. you can't easilly evaluate the rings.. unless you want to pull a piston.. in which case you might as well do all 3 ( or 4 ) and rering anyway.

if ti were me.. I'd do the valve job and see where I was at.. head gaskets aren't that expensive..

Soundguy

Soundguy · May 28, 2006

Ideally, all rebuilds would renew sleaves, rings, valves and bearings.. But.. just as a fact of life.. it's quite common to open a working engine up and just do a valve job, or drop rings in.

Your call on what you want to get into.. but.. you could always do the valve job, and then comp test again.. and if the rings were bad, all you are out is a head gasket, and also the price for the new rings, and a few incedentals like 'test' oil.. etc.

Without the valves good for the test.. you can't easilly evaluate the rings.. unless you want to pull a piston.. in which case you might as well do all 3 ( or 4 ) and rering anyway.

if ti were me.. I'd do the valve job and see where I was at.. head gaskets aren't that expensive..

Soundguy

Renze · Jun 11, 2006

I did a head job on my Zetor 5245 last winter, it had burned valves due to lack of cooling water...
dismantling all the bonnet sheetmetal, fuel lines etcetera, was just as much work as the actual head job.
I brought the three monoheads to a rebuild shop, they polished the valve/valve seats for 4 euro per valve, head gaskets and water, intake and exhaust manifolds totalled about 60 Euro. grinding (flattening) the heads was also somewhere near 15 Euro per head.

It's not that hard to do, and isnt expensive either. You could help teh mechanics by removing the sheetmetal etcetera to speed up the process, and let them do the actual head mounting with a torque wrench, and adjust valve clearance. Then you can mount manifolds and water hoses etcetera.

Renze · Jun 11, 2006

I did a head job on my Zetor 5245 last winter, it had burned valves due to lack of cooling water...
dismantling all the bonnet sheetmetal, fuel lines etcetera, was just as much work as the actual head job.
I brought the three monoheads to a rebuild shop, they polished the valve/valve seats for 4 euro per valve, head gaskets and water, intake and exhaust manifolds totalled about 60 Euro. grinding (flattening) the heads was also somewhere near 15 Euro per head.

It's not that hard to do, and isnt expensive either. You could help teh mechanics by removing the sheetmetal etcetera to speed up the process, and let them do the actual head mounting with a torque wrench, and adjust valve clearance. Then you can mount manifolds and water hoses etcetera.

CMunger · Jun 11, 2006

Renze, When you go back with the heads, what thickness head gasket do you use, or does a 5245 have a choice? I know like a 3320 does.

Chuck

Renze · Jun 12, 2006

Chuck, i asked my dealer if i had to use 1,5 or 1,2 mm gaskets. My dealer gave me 1.2 and said that was advisable.
Later on, i bought a workshop manual and the manual said that the gasket thickness was depending on the piston/head clearance.
Anyways, the piston doesnt pop out of the liner in upper dead point, and the head is flat. so collison of valve and piston is impossible.

I also mounted a radiator of our first Zetor, a 5718 which was wrecked for parts. I was told the fine mazed radiators caused trouble in the 5245, and that was true: With the older radiator i can plough 3 furrow 16" reversible, continuously on full power at 30 °C outside temperature, when you can see on the temp gauge that the thermostat is opening and closing...
Making it run cooler with more power, seated the piston rings so well that there is no oil consumption at all in 100 hrs, and the cooler oil has the result that the oil is black though, but still has the viscosity like new oil...

Sometimes leaking rings just need to burn clean by hard working, to seal off better.

There is also an oil addition, which helps lubricating old rings and solves carbon buildup in the ring grooves.

Kaliburz · Jul 2, 2006

Man, taking that thing apart is a dog! I guess I assumed it would be easy....WRONG. Why did they put the bracket that holds the fuel tank and dash sheet metal on the BACK of the head!?

Since mine is a Select O Speed, I'd have to disconnect the PTO control and leave the tranny selector "hanging" just to take off the fuel tank and sheet metal. Uggg....must be another way. And the steering wheel has to be removed.....

Right now, I'm thinking of just disconnecting the tank/sheet metal and pulling the head while the bracket is still on. Will save the time of having to pull the tank/dash/steering wheel.

Those engineers....why did they put that bracket on the back of the head..... Now I know why I LOVE my John Deere's....

Soundguy · Jul 2, 2006

The old ford engineers were actually pretty good.. compaired tot he new holland engineers. They do some pretty boneheaded stuff these days... wires running loose under the tractor with spade terminal disconnetcs and such...and if they pop apart.. your big huge tractor is crippled and stranded... That's not where i would run all the critical wireing... especially on a tractor that you know is going to be driving thru brush with a mower.. etc.

Soundguy

Kaliburz · Jul 4, 2006

Ah yes..... FINALY got the head off- bearly 9:30pm (July 3rd) or so when it happend. Gotta love air tools....and forklifts.

I don't think the coolet was ever drained before...if so, that green gunk that eventually rolled out was discusting!

Any how, inital inspection looked promising. There was no ridge, at least from feeling in the semi darkness. Most of the cylinder bore was smooth as can be...at least near the top. Pistons were fairly clean....a little soot.

After a flashlight inspection....found out the block is toast. #1 cylinder has "gouges" in it. It looks like the rod pin got loose and moved back and forth. I'm hazzarding a guess that this has never been rebuilt...and if it has, who ever did it either 1) did not care about the gouges-just put the engine back w/ new rings 2) or didn't happen then but did eventually.

My buddy helping pretty much agrees the block is toast. I don't think it can be machined for an over bore, let alone maching and relined. I told myself that if the block came out, I'd put a rem. engine. Why mess w/ the old one...... (Gonna have another friend-a diesel mechanic- look at it...maybe it just looks bad...or just me and wishful thinking). As I said...it was dark. But 4 'gouges' in the bore.....

Gonna have to chat w/ a Select-O-Speed 'expert' mechanic about a larger engine mounted to it..... Was told the place that sells parts for this harvester, the guys there know a bit about the SOS tranny...I'll go pick their brain...

Kaliburz · Jul 5, 2006

Gouges are deep....mechanic buddy estimates eighty thousandths. Looks like its been opened up before, maybe for a ring job. So who knows if the pin moved recently or an old "wound". The other harvesters had a 4000 on top (46 PTO HP vs 38 PTO HP). Moving on to a "different" engine w/ a bit more power (pending chatting w/ the SOS guy). And then it's off to the NH dealer.....

Soundguy · Jul 5, 2006

That little change in hp doesn't sound too bad.. I'm guessing your 'good working' sos shouldn't have a problem assuming everything mates up.. etc.

soundguy

Kaliburz · Jul 6, 2006

Soundguy said:
That little change in hp doesn't sound too bad.. I'm guessing your 'good working' sos shouldn't have a problem assuming everything mates up.. etc.

soundguy

Actually, I want 50-55 PTO HP..... was thinking of a 4630 engine. It's only 12 or so more HP. Thursday I plan to chat w/ the SOS guys....

And as you said, if it will mate up. I'm "assuming" the crank shaft bolt pattern is similar, a long with the bell housing.