TomG

[TomG]

Seems to me that some content over the past several days hasn't exactly matched the recent comments about civility & TBN. I believe there is civility here and that this is a TRACTOR discussion page. Maybe some leadership could be used.

 

[cowboydoc]

Tom,
You've been here alot longer than me but to me this board is like the feedstore that I go down to for coffee on saturday morning. We talk a little about farming, cattle, and equipment and talk about the weather, politics, etc. What's wrong with talking about these topics in the rural living and off the topic discussions? I take my breaks during the day and listen to the "boys" talking on here about things and it's kinda nice. Certainly it seems that everyone puts their messages in the appropriate forums. I think that's part of what makes this board so popular is it's good technical info. when a guy needs it or you learn something you didn't think you needed and you can shoot the breeze with the guys and gals as well on the off topic and rural forums.

 

[TomG]

I go to the beer hall for talk like Mr. Moron, The pooping Quebecer etc., not the feed store. It's not new here, last fall we were discussing how to best demolish the vehicles of kids who were damaging mailboxes. At least to me, the beer hall is a better place than the feed store for exchanging superiority and aggression fantasies--people listen to all sorts of stuff there. Of course, the beer hall isn't a good place for telling jokes about shooting Canadians, somebody might take exception--strong exception.

Anyway, the tractoring and ag content of this board has seriously declined over the past year. Several persons who contributed much time and expertise are no longer around--wonder why? The board @agriculture went through pretty much the same thing. It crashed down to about 6 posts a day and has very slowly come back in the past year. It's less chatty now, and a good deal less nutty.

At any rate, If I had to pass the time of day in the feed store by going through some of the discussions here. I'm afraid the animals may become malnourished. I wish the wives of some folks here would let them go the beer hall more often, maybe they'd get this stuff out of their systems.

Around here at least, a lot of this stuff is not how people talk in feed stores, and I believe this board would be better served with less of it here. Mohammed, do you understand that jokes about shooting Canadians in the middle of a thread of thread of Canadians talking to each other is crude and offensive? It’s your parlour and you should figure out if you want a beer hall or a feed store.

 

[Muhammad]

Tom,

In particular, I think it was obvious that no offense was intended with the Canadian jokes, as a reply was made by a user who lives in Canada, and said "<font color=blue>That is a good one! Continuing in the spirit of good-fun....</font color=blue>" and he continued on to post a joke himself. Had there been comments posted about it being crude and offensive, of course I would consider removing it, but there weren't.

Threads like "Mr. Moron mired in muck" and the mailbox thread are actually related to rural living and tractors. True, not all off-topic posts are, though. Not everyone is interested to hear what is said in such threads, and I don't think anyone expects everyone to agree or find interesting what is said in the off-topic threads.

The fact is that while there is a bit of off-topic discussion, I think that has really helped the forum. We saw that users wanted to drift from time to time, so we made the rural living and off-topic forums. If you don't want to hear it, you simply don't have to read those forums. By organizing it into separate forums, we give you the choice. I have no doubts that there is still a sea of tractor knowledge exchanged on a regular basis in all of the on-topic forums. 24 of the 30 forums we have are directly related to tractors so yes, this is a tractor forum. The only thing is, most people are friendly, and I'm happy to see that. It makes the forum quite a bit different from other forums on the web. Overall, there is a real (growing) community of people here who solve problems when they come up, help new users when they come along, and aren't afraid to sit back and laugh from time to time. Discussion doesn't have to be up-tight and emotionless to be effective.

 

[Bird]

Amen.

Bird

 

[jfakerj]

TomG

Being a member of this board for only a short time I'm not sure I'm qualified (by time spent) to give a opinion on policy, but here goes anyway.
I"ve read Mr. Moron and and think that the material is fine, a little racey for this board, but just fine. Mr. Moron was posted in Off Topic so the posting, in my opinion, is in the correct forum and I did not find the material to be in bad taste. They're just stories that have happened to people. As a teen and young adult, I would have related to some of these things as I would have been on the other side of the stories (the moron). My, how perspective changes with age. I for one respect and value your watchful eye concerning content. Being a long time user of this board, you and others have helped to make it what it is. One of the things that has impressed me about this board is it's civility. I catch myself double checking my posts to make sure that I have been civil and have not used any off color language.
I for one thank you for your concerns (that's what keeps this board civil) but in this case feel that your concerns are unfounded. IMHO

Jerry

 

[Boondox]

Tom -- If you reread my post about the visitor who was attempting to leave me a little gift by the woodshed, you'll see that I was armed out of fear that my dogs had discovered another porcupine. Having experienced combat while in the Marine Corps, and lost several dear friends in the process, the thought of turning a firearm on another human being disgusts me. When carrying a rifle, it is entirely natural to use it as an extension of a pointing finger. Rest assured the firearm was not only empty(rounds were in my boot), but the breach was open so the offending party could clearly see the chamber was empty.

While I appreciate your concerns, I feel you read a lot more into the story than was intended. Also, I would not have shared that story in any tractor-related forum. I believe the forum was called "off topic" for a reason. If you're looking for tractor and ag content, don't look in the off topic forum. Simple.

Semper fi. Pete

Yearning for a bigger tractor!

 

[TomG]

Making jokes about shooting a person of an ethnic group because they're worthless is not good clean fun any place I've ever been where people were raised right. Suggesting that the acceptance from one person, who is too polite to say what this stuff is, makes it OK is weak to the point of absurdity.

I hopped my overstated wakeup call would result in some support for a 'there's a place for everything, but this isn't necessarily it' attitude. To me, there's been a creeping lack of focus here for sometime. Guess not. Oh well, as I say it's your parlour and you have to live in it.

 

[TomG]

I know I was overstating thing to make a point. I did understand the nature of your comment and didn't intend my response to be aimed at any individual. No disrespect intended, and you did think about it, which isn't bad.

Let me see if I can get a story short enough to illustrate why I react as I do. I'll call it 'Fear Kills.' I grew up with long and handguns from age 12. I also had 4 years active military duty plus some ROTC (U.S. forces. I am a native-born son and a volunteer to national service in '62). I always figured that I should be pretty reliable in the use of firearms. However, years later I found myself alone in a student apartment building over a Christmas break). I heard noises in the storage room next to out apartment. I found myself with my loaded P38 kicking open the storage room door. After the fact I realize I was hearing the building popping due to a cold snap. Lord, I thought I could have shot somebody for trying to steal a few bucks of student junk. Got rid of my handguns a few weeks later. Fortunately I figured out that, despite my background, I didn't have reliable enough reactions. I have trouble with jokes about it probably due to recognizing my own limitations.

On the pooping subject, we had a RV dump its holding tank less than 100' from two dug wells a couple of years back. Due to our location there's a real good chance that the idiot was from Michigan (remember the shooting joke?). I think I mentioned it at the time, but I wouldn't identify where the idiot was from even if I knew. Figure there's no reason to trash an entire group for the action of one idiot.

 

[TomG]

I am sorely disappointed that you find the idea of shooting a member of a particular group because they are worthless funny or acceptable. I believe we have common experience in both time and geography as well as in the professional use of firearms.

I find the idea of shooting people a little real for jokes. I also know some bad boys who have carried out some of the very dark things done in the name of nation. They don't joke about such things at all. At least to me I find that attaching jokes to particular groups is an issue of decency and respect. I don’t do it to others because I don’t want it done to me. Maybe I overdo it, but then I’ve come to think of myself as just an educated hick, which may explain why I just don't fit some places--like here for example.

 

[TWINKLE_TOES]

Tom,

<font color=blue>I am sorely disappointed that you find the idea of shooting a member of a particular group because they are worthless funny or acceptable.</font color=blue>

Thats a lot to read into one word. "Amen"

 

[BobT]

TomG,

Please accept my apologies on behalf of all Americans if you were offended by the content or connotations of the "joke".

I have re-read the joke, and do not feel that the person relating it was in any sense actually advocating the killing of Canadians, or the shooting of anyone for that matter. Was it a good joke? Not for me. Was it tasteless? Surely to some. Was it so offensive as to warrant deletion from the forum? Hardly.

There are now more than 25,000 unique total visitors to Tractorbynet.com monthly, a figure up roughly double from a year ago.

You might reflect that of all of these users and visitors, you were the only one who seemed so deeply offended by the joke, at least enough to write a post about it.

From reading almost every post on the prior board and this web site for the past three years, one of the realizations I have come to is that owning a compact tractor is not just about the hardware and repairs. It is a lifestyle, bordering on a way of life. To be sure, it is a lifestyle different in kind and degree from the older farmer-type of tractor owner (like myself). I see from the profiles that we have some farmers, but a lot more engineers, brain surgeons, teachers, police captains, FBI agents, web designers, and about every other kind of occupation and social and political view imaginable.

The unity in this diversity of background, occupation, politics, religion, and economic levels, is the love of riding and using a tractor. Less than 10% of the total posts are off the direct topic of tractors. I believe these side doors of discussions help us to understand and respect each other more, not less.

Frankly, given the extreme plurality of the total universe of users of Tractorbynet.com, I find it remarkable (as many others have agreed) that the overall tone and operation of this board is carried on with such mutual respect and dignity. It is surely one of the best operated web boards on the Internet.

Nonetheless, I am sure there are limits. People would only need to substitute for the word 'Canadian' any member of another country, religion or racial group, to see how offensive such "jokes" can be.

I hope you are not serious in saying that you do not think you "belong here." I have found your posts of tremendous interest and relevance, and in fact we need persons of high intellect and reason like yourself, to speak up and make others aware when their remarks may be careless or thoughtless.

Americans are famous the world over for being naively chauvinistic (put their own country first no matter what). They can be quite insensitive to how rude their remarks may seem to others of different cultures and countries. However Americans, despite this, are among the fairest-minded people on the planet. And when they are made aware of the errors of their ways, are usually surprised that others have been offended, and make sincere efforts to avoid the offense in the future. I believe that is exactly what you have observed expressed here in this case. I doubt we will see any more "jokes" about shooting Canadians or anyone else!

I have had the pleasure of visiting Canada several times and traversing large parts of your fabulously lovely country. I find Canadians in general to be very well organized, thoughtful, and easily the most courteous and respectful drivers in the world. In fact, I have often said, in the midst of the insanity of American highway chaos, that we Americans need to go to Canada to learn how to drive.

Stick around TomG ... we need the Canadian perspective!!!

BobT.
A Indiana Boy

 

[caddison]

Tom,

I can also say that I have not been here long, but in the time that I have spent here I can say everyone that participates in this forum is a "good" person and means no ill will to anyone. Most stories that fall into the "off topic and just for fun" forum are just that. The wonderful thing about this country is the right to choose and freedom of expression. Now don't get me wrong, I don not believe in the radical forms of expression that we witness today, pretty conservative and proud of it.

As a member of this forum I do apologize if you were offended by a post. I am in question to the offensive post you are regarding to as I looked over it. Freedom of choice in what I choose to read and respond to! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif The one thing that everyone needs to keep in mind is that some people are more sensitive to things than others and we should be considerate of that, believe me, it has taken me a while to be more aware of this also. Comes with age I guess /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif, We do tend to take some things for granted in that we do not all think alike and appreciate the same forms of humor, be a very boring world if we did. Please do not disregard the forum as your impute and presence is very much appreciated as I think you can tell. Remember that the larger a forum, country, nation or anything else becomes the more diverse it becomes also. And with diversity comes differing opinions.

 

[Bird]

<font color=blue>disappointed that you find the idea of shooting a member of a particular group because they are worthless funny or acceptable</font color=blue>

Tom, I wouldn't intentionally do anything to offend you, or anyone else, and of course I don't find the idea of shooting anyone acceptable, although I do find a lot of joking acceptable. Texans make jokes about folks from Oklahoma (I was born in Oklahoma and have lived in Texas since I was 16) and I thought the whole world made jokes about Texans. And I think a lot of the jokes are hilarious.

You mention your experience with guns. Well, I, too, was raised in a rural area; got a .22 rifle when I was 11 and a 12 gauge shotgun less than a year later, my first pistol when I was 18, then carried a gun in law enforcement for nearly 25 years. And like many police officers, I had opportunities to shoot people "legally", and I never had any doubt about my ability to do so, if necessary, but fortunately I never had to test that theory. I've never shot at a person and certainly hope I never have to, regardless of what "group" a person might belong to.

And as far as Canadians are concerned, you'll find my comments in another thread about the very pleasant experiences I had in my trips across Canada. So, I sincerely apologize if I've offended you, and I think you certainly do belong with this group on the forum.

Bird

 

[Knight9]

Hi all,

Thought I would take the opportunity to clear up my position on the "joke" issue. Being the Canadian who replied with a joke of his own...I personally was not offended by the original "shooting Canadians" joke. I've heard the joke before with different sections of people referred to. I don't support, nor enjoy, racial jokes based on peoples nationality, religion, or color of skin. HOWEVER....as I'm sure we can all agree the USA and Canada have a very unusual relationship. We share the longest border in the world, which many of us cross freely and frequently. We are about as close as two countries can be.

We have a TV Show here in Canada called "This Hour has 22 Minutes". It is a weekly political/cultural comedy show with regular skits. One of the most popular skits involves one of their reporters visiting various US destinations and interviewing Americans about there knowledge of Canada, or lack thereof!!! Canadians found it very amusing to listen to the reporter actually get Americans to say "Congratulations Canada on getting a second area code." I mean come on, in Toronto they have to dial an area code every time they phone someone there are so many phone numbers and so many people. Were Canadians laughing at the expense of Americans??? Perhaps, but I don't believe any harm was intended.

I also don't believe any harm was intended with the original joke. I would agree that shooting someone isn't really the best choice of fodor for a joke, and that we are here to focus on tractors....but part of what I have enjoyed here is a sense of family and community. And in every family there is some "sibling" rivally, not unlike what the US and Canada share. Don't think any of us would ever like to see any harm come to either nation. In fact I'm pretty sure we have both fought to prevent that. Lets keep it up.

Kevin

PS....we looked good working TOGETHER on the ice today!! North America over the World 14 to 12 wasn't it? /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif