Top And Tilt Revisited...

[Bobm]

Howdy TBN’ers –

I have a Top N Tilt issue that I don’t believe has been addressed in any of the previous threads concerning TNT or TCC (Terrain Contour Control). My L5450 has Kubota’s TNT installed on it. The entire unit was manufactured for Kubota by Gannon (now Woods). In my case, as per the attached pic, you can see there are dual tilt cylinders as well as the single top link cylinder. The end result (which Bird diligently observed in a past TNT thread) is that the Gannon dual tilt cylinder set-up gives significantly more tilt (9+” measured at end of lower link) than the TCC set-ups. While this is good while using a box scraper, there is a cost…it reduces the lift height of the entire hitch by approximately 5” to 6” for normal (level) implement operations.

When using tilt, the Gannon unit (via single joy stick) provides pressure to one lower link cylinder thereby reducing its effective length. The other lower link cylinder remains passive. When reversing the tilt, there is a detent when the lower links level (both lower cylinders equally extended as in pic) and if continuing to reverse the tilt, the other lower cylinder begins to contract. At no time do both cylinders contract.

For implement applications that don’t use any tilt function, I would like to be able to simultaneously raise BOTH lower link cylinders and thus increase the total lift height of the implement. Is this possible? My solution (not yet attempted) is to disconnect one tilt cylinder from TNT system, connect the same tilt cylinder to my extra remote and thus be able to raise both cylinders albeit in a cobby fashion.

Any suggestions are appreciated. I’m getting tired of taking the entire TNT affair off (and replacing with original top link and bottom connecting arms) when I truly need that last 6” or so of implement lift height.

 

[Bird]

I had not seen the Kubota TNT before, and what you described sounds like a bit of a poor design to me, because I'm like you in thinking there should be a way to retract both lower link cylinders when you want to. Just offhand, I can't think of any better solution than the one you're proposed. Let us know how it works, or whether you find a better solution.

 

[Henro]

<font color="blue"> My solution (not yet attempted) is to disconnect one tilt cylinder from TNT system, connect the same tilt cylinder to my extra remote and thus be able to raise both cylinders albeit in a cobby fashion </font>

I have been thinking of using two tilt cylinders on my tractor, when I get around to putting together a T&T setup.

From what I have seen a joy stick just replaces two seperate control valve handles in many cases. So it would seem to me you could take off the joystick and replace it with two individual control handles, and work the cylinders independently. That is what I intend to do. That way you can retract both cylinders fully, and whatever you have on the 3PH should be lever with the tractor for certain, without even looking...and get max 3PH lift at the same time...

Seems to me the answer would be to replace the joy stick with two seperate handles if that is possible with the Gannon control valves...and I would bet it is... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Inspector507]

The problem with replacing the joystick with 2 separarte valves for the tilt cylinders, would be the loss of the top link control.
I think I have an idea, but let me put it on paper and think about it for a minute.

 

[Inspector507]

Tell me if this might work......
Redo the hoses so that the "feed" hose is common to each cylinder by way of a hydraulic block or "T" if you will. Do the same with the "return" hose.
Now, cut a diverter (with one port plugged) or an electric solenoid into the lines on one side cylinder only.
With the diverters or solenoids open, both side links will lengthen or retract at the same time. Get them to the length you want the ONE to be and close the diverters/solenoids. Now the joystick will continue to control the remaning cylinder only. The solenoids/diverters are 12V operated, so it's just a flip of a switch.

Please see the attached (very crude) drawing.

This may cause a porblem if both cylinders are not at the same length when opening up the diverters to control them simultaniously again.

 

[Inspector507]

Or use diverters where the hoses come off the control.......and then run one side of the diverter to one cylinder and the other side to the other cylinder. That way the flip of a switch and you control one cylinder, flip it again and control the other one.

 

[Henro]

I may have misunderstood...but it sounded like the joystick was operating the two cylinders and not the top link...

IF that is the case...then taking the joystick off and using two handles would likely be an option...if the setup some how also includes the top link as part it...well, not sure... /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[Bobm]

Thanks Bird, Henro & Inspector !

Yep, Henro, the joystick controls both side and top tilt cylinders.

Inspector, I may have solved my own problem by staring and scratching. Attached is poor copy of the Kubota TNT schematic. In the schematic, pressure would be simultaneously provided to either top or bottom port of both lower link cylinders... I can't see how this setup would provide tilt - just simultaneous up and down movement of both cylinders... which is what I wanted!! Am I in error in making this observation? The same schematic is shown three times in the Kubota TNT Operator and Parts Manual.

Yet, in the following post is a pic of how my tractor was plumbed. I think you can see the hoses going to the bottom cylinders are crossed... as they ought to be! My TNT has worked admirably since birth and thus I must assume it is "correct".

What do you guys think? Just switch one set of hoses on one of the cylinders (as per the schematic) and I ought to have what I'm looking for? Or back to the mental drawing board?

 

[Bobm]

Here's the pic of my set-up... whatcha all think? Thanks in advance!

 

[MadReferee]

If I am looking at the picture and the schematic correctly you actually have a 3 spool valve there. The first set of work ports go to the top link. The middle set are teed between the 2 tilt links. The third set is plumbed as an unused remote.

Now if your joystick controls the first and second ports (top link and tilt links) do you have another lever to control the third set of work ports?

 

[MadReferee]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( What do you guys think? Just switch one set of hoses on one of the cylinders (as per the schematic) and I ought to have what I'm looking for? Or back to the mental drawing board?)</font>

If you have room to install quick disconnects you can do what you suggest.

 

[Bobm]

<font color="red"> If I am looking at the picture and the schematic correctly you actually have a 3 spool valve there. The first set of work ports go to the top link. The middle set are teed between the 2 tilt links. The third set is plumbed as an unused remote.</font>

Yep, the third spool goes to a remote single lever. I'm heading to the barn to switch the hoses on one of the lower link cylinders. Assuming it does what I think it will, I'll install quick connects. The changeover from straight up-down to tilt won't be as smooth as that which Inspector outlined, but I think will meet my needs.

 

[Henro]

BobM,

Do you normally use the third remote, the one with the quick connects on it? If not, you could take the hoses for the right tilt cylinder off the tees, cap the tees on that side, and hook the right cylinder to the third control valve.

Swapping the hoses on one tilt cylinder like you are going to try will certainly give you more lift and a level 3PH when both cylinders are all the way up. It will be interesting to see if difficulties arise getting level if you have a need to have the lift arms go lower than they do with both tilt cylinders fully retracted. The thought being that with parallel cylinders the one feeling the least resistance will hog the fluid.

For example, if you have paralled cylinders, and put a concrete block under one of the lower arms, and nothing under the other, and start to extend the tilt cylinders, the one that hits the concrete block may stop extending, and the other may extend twice as fast at that point, until it hit the ground or the cylinder fully extended. Actually since the 3PH does not apply down pressure, this may or may not happen... Once the lower arm finds that concrete block, it may start lifting the 3PH lift arms...hard to say...

Guess my point is that with parallel cylinders it may be hard to set level on an attachment except for when the cylinders are fully retracted or fully extended... With ample 3PH lift you may not find this to be an issue on your tractor.

If you control each tilt cylinder independently, then you are in complete command of them, and can certainly set level of the rear implement at any point in cylinder travel. But in return you give up your third remote output... /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif Something you certainly would not want to do if you use it regularly...

 

[JerryG]

Bob,
On one of your side cylinders, swap the hoses end to end. If you do this, then you will have your tilt. That way, one side cylinder will extend as the other one retracts.

 

[Bobm]

Thanks for your suggestion, Henro! I swapped hoses on one of the lower cylinders, and as expected, now have both lower cylinders raise/lower simultaneously. Tried lowering my logging winch on uneven ground, and the winch sits flat (parallel) on any irregular slope. So far, so good.

Now I'll put quick connects on both switched lower cylinder lines, so can switch back from tilt function to full raise function by switching hoses.

Boy, whoever at Gannon designed this TNT for Kubota did not foresee many uses. As the main spool valve sits <font color="red">directly </font> in line with the top link, and that top hydraulic cylinder link is now about 4" in diameter, when one fully raises the entire 3PH the top cylinder link could contact and easily smash the spool valve... and that's with the top link set into the bottom (of four) holes on the draft control! If set into the proper (top) hole (no draft being used), the top cylinder could smash the spool valve flat!!

So.... next I am moving the entire spool valve assembly off to the side by 6" - gotta weld a new bracket to do so but that's no big deal. I will also put quick connects onto the top cylinder, thereby allowing that cylinder to be quickly removed and replaced with the standard top link which of course is smaller in diameter than the hydraulic cylinder link, and will buy me an additional 3" of implement lift.

btw, this L5450 is new to me (bought the '98 L5450 last March, had a nearly identical L3350 prior to it) hence just now getting around to "fixing" the TNT to be more versatile. I think when completed, I will have a fully functional TNT and all of the original (extremely high lift) 3PH features too.

Don't know if Gannon is still making these TNT units for Kubota, but if so they would do well to scrutinize all applications and redesign accordingly. The necessary changes seem obvious to me, don't impair function or aesthetics, and would cost little to nothing to implement.

I'll post before and after pics when completed.

 

[jmc]

Henro,

I may be rewording what you just said but this is the way I see it:

For any given tractor toplink hole position, the 3PH linkage has a certain vertical arc of travel. To get maximum implement lift, you need to to have the 3PH as low as possible when you hook up the implement. If not, you wasted part of that arc on letting the implement go lower than it needs to.

With Bob's setup, he gets both side links the same length, changes the hoses so the side links move in the same direction, and backs up to the implement that needs to be raised the most. Now he retracts both sidelinks as far as possible but still line up with the implement. This is a "one time" setup and now he can change the hoses back so that the sidelinks act opposite to each other, and leave them that way. He's setup in the sweet spot.

When he is tilting an implement, even when the shorter link is fully retracted, the longer link continues to lengthen, so its not like you have to avoid one end of the stroke.

One problem is cylinder leak down. I ordered Kubota's TNT on an L4330 and the sidelink drifts when brand new. Bob's may too, and that may be why they are operating on the wrong end of their range in the first place.

John

 

[MadReferee]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Don't know if Gannon is still making these TNT units for Kubota, but if so they would do well to scrutinize all applications and redesign accordingly. The necessary changes seem obvious to me, don't impair function or aesthetics, and would cost little to nothing to implement.
)</font>

The Kubota TNT kits contain only top link and a single side tilt link (I am pretty sure on this) cylinders for the L series and is not offered for B and BX series. The L series requires the factory remotes (or you can roll your own). I am not sure if Gannon still supplies the cylinders. My guess would be no since they are probably now sourced elsewhere for much less $$$.

 

[Bobm]

Thanks John!

Even though my tractor is new to me, the original owner states the lower cylinders have always been fully extended when "at rest". You bring up an excellent point though - should they be fully retracted at rest? I'll reconnect to the old tilt setup, but will start with cylinders retracted and note if there is any leak down.

When I first received this tractor I left all hydraulics suspended just to note leak down (that was a minor problem with the old L3350). I did not note any leak down (loader, three point, top link) but of course DID NOT simultaneously test both lower link cylinders when retracted as this is the first time both are simultaneously retracted.

Thanks again- this is the true definition of synergy.