Tornadoes!

[dmccarty]

I would not have a storm shelter with a door that open outward. One could easily have enough debris land on the shelter that a bottle jack won't even budge the debris. The house I helped clean up after the 2011 NC tornado storms was moved off the foundation and dumped in the back yard, right were you would place a storm shelter. The debris pile was 5-6 feet tall in places and took a dozen or so people working with a tractor to get down maybe 3 feet. No way in heck a jack was moving that pile. It might have been possible to wiggle out of the pile but it would have been iffy and certainly dangerous.

The volunteer fire fighter who found the homeowners body after the storm had just been to training on crawling through debris piles to find victims. Thankfully he did not have to crawl through the pile since she was just outside the home.

Having a jack, saw, hatchet, pry bars, etc. in the shelter would be a very good idea since that would help get out of some situations but if a large tree, house, or part there of, falls on the shelter the people inside will be stuck for a while. Better have food, water, and a place to go to the bathroom in the shelter. Twould be even better to have a second way out of the shelter.

Later,
Dan

 

[Western]

The volunteer fire fighter who found the homeowners body after the storm had just been to training on crawling through debris piles to find victims. Thankfully he did not have to crawl through the pile since she was just outside the home.

Having a jack, saw, hatchet, pry bars, etc. in the shelter would be a very good idea since that would help get out of some situations but if a large tree, house, or part there of, falls on the shelter the people inside will be stuck for a while. Better have food, water, and a place to go to the bathroom in the shelter. Twould be even better to have a second way out of the shelter.

Later,
Dan

Agree on a "2nd" door, that would be a nice addition. I would like to have a door that can be totaly remove by somehow removing a secondary hinge system, or other design.

Dan, I'm guessing that the lady in your post, would have gladly been stuck in a shelter for a day or so, versus no, to little protection. Keeping a shelter ready for a 3-4 day "sleep over" seems to be a good idea. 1st aid kit,prescription meds, water, porta potty, stable food weather radio and whistle or other location type device.

 

[KYErik]

I can see how it would be hard to design a door which is at a 45 degree angle or so to open inward and not leak over the course of 20+ years (unless a rubber seal was replaced every several years). I suppose such a door could be caulked shut/resealed after each use.

Although it would be more expensive (and perhaps not as strong), the blocked outward opening door issue could be solved by having the steel door frame bolted to the inside of the shelter, so that the bolts could be removed from the inside and the whole door and frame assembly could be lowered into the shelter. Of course one would have to remember to stow the correct sockets in the shelter...

 

[dmccarty]

Agree on a "2nd" door, that would be a nice addition. I would like to have a door that can be totaly remove by somehow removing a secondary hinge system, or other design.

Dan, I'm guessing that the lady in your post, would have gladly been stuck in a shelter for a day or so, versus no, to little protection. Keeping a shelter ready for a 3-4 day "sleep over" seems to be a good idea. 1st aid kit,prescription meds, water, porta potty, stable food weather radio and whistle or other location type device.

Yep, she sure would have. She knew the tornado was approaching so she had time to get in a shelter. In her case, help arrived within minutes and if people knew she had a storm shelter that was buried under the debris they could have started work to get her out. In a built up area it might take long to find a buried shelter much less dig people out. In our case, it might be days before someone checked on us much less tried to started digging us out. I have plans to build a storm shelter/food cellar, like I have time and money to do so, and the design has more than on entrance.

I would not want a shelter with a door that opened outward since it can cause problems and the problem is easily avoided by having an inward opening door. Having said that, if a house falls across the shelter door, even an inward opening door is only going to get you so far. But at least you have a chance of being able to wiggle your way out or maybe get a cell signal. With an outward opening door you ain't going anywhere in the same circumstances.

Later,
Dan

 

[Bird]

Keeping a shelter ready for a 3-4 day "sleep over" seems to be a good idea. 1st aid kit,prescription meds, water, porta potty, stable food weather radio and whistle or other location type device.

You're right, of course, but such plans always remind me of a coworker in the Post Office in the early 60s. His house blew away in a tornado that hit Dallas in 1958. He said he, his wife, 2 little boys, and the dog were all under the bed. He said he and the dog were trying to dig a foxhole in the hardwood floor with their fingernails. Anyway, it blew the house away and left that bed sitting there with them under it. No more house, but no injuries. So when he rebuilt, he had an underground storm/bomb shelter installed in the backyard, and he stocked it, as you recommended. And 3 or 4 years later, when he had not gone into it for a few months, he went out and opened the door and found his storm shelter plumb full of water and a terrible stench; had to rent a pump to pump it out, and of course throw away all his supplies. It seems those 2 little boys had run a garden hose into the storm shelter and filled it up to play in the water, and naturally didn't tell anyone.

 

[Piperflyer]

What do they do with all the debris that is generated from a storm of this size. It must be a big landfill it is taken too.

 

[Western]

Bird that is "almost" funny:laughing: Wouldn't think a couple youngsters would do such a thing!!

If I build underground, I think some kind of waterproofing membrane will be in order. I kinda like the idea of a "half" buried, with a shallow egress. Whatever I do, family and friends will know it's location, that should cure the "outward door" problem. Another possibility would be a 2nd location on the shelter with a "knock-out" area. The shelter I was looking at only has 3" thick walls, seems a bit thin for me.

 

[Pixguy]

What do they do with all the debris that is generated from a storm of this size. It must be a big landfill it is taken too.

Or a landfill just by itself!

I would think the out swinging doors must work best if they are readily available and bought, and if it is registered with the authorities, then they would uncover it in short time, as they did in this storm.
Easy for me to surmise, I've only worried about hurricanes in the NE and FL.

 

[rekees4300]

This is a tearjerker

 

[greasemonkeyok]

That, and Mr. Orr having to put down some of his horses.

 

[dmccarty]

What do they do with all the debris that is generated from a storm of this size. It must be a big landfill it is taken too.

Cleanup is a huge problem. In the city it is easier but it is a bigger problem in a rural area. FEMA comes in a pays to remove the debris. Sounds good. The problem is that the debris has to be alongside the road. In the city this is not a problem but in a rural area this is a bigger problem. The property owner has to have the money to get the debris to the road which is no simple task.

It would have been much easier to just burn the debris piles that were the remains of the houses I saw destroyed but that is a no no.

So many trees were destroyed after Hurricane Fran that cleaning this up was a major operation. There is a quarry in Raleigh that has been in operation for many decades. The older area of the quarry was removed a ridge and created a valley. The trees taken down in the hurricane were chipped up in that valley. The mounds of chips filled up the valley. It was unreal to see. Eventually the chips were trucked off and spread here and there but it was a huge amount of chips.

Later,
Dan

 

[dmccarty]

I was thinking about shelter placement.

Looking at tornado tracks it seems that most tornadoes go from the SW to the NE. So placing a shelter on the NE side of a house would create a higher chance of house debris falling on the shelter. Course if there are trees, houses, and/or buildings all around the house, shelter placement might not make much difference....

Later,
Dan

 

[daugen]

Dan,
we get hurricanes that come through our way for sure, but not these tornadoes anywhere near the scale of further West.
And since I'm considering a move to NC, I'm wondering, do you get tornadoes there? Do they make it "that far over?".
I always wondered if the mountain ranges of the East helped to buffer us from this violent weather.
Just curious to see/hear if things are heating up in your area.

I wonder if there is an updated map showing the areas of tornado damage historically. Time to improve building codes in those areas.
All schools, not just some, in those areas need to have safe rooms. Safe from Mother Nature's fury and the human crazies who prey on the helpless.

 

[dave1949]

I looked at some photos that showed the yards of completely undamaged rural homes that are in the debris path field, or whatever it would be called. Those yards are completely littered with trash ... just like the old trailer rent home up the road here. Lot of work just to round up all that junk. Roof tin, insulation, it's all out there. I don't think those yards could be mowed even before some serious clean up.

 

[Western]

I was thinking about shelter placement.

Looking at tornado tracks it seems that most tornadoes go from the SW to the NE. So placing a shelter on the NE side of a house would create a higher chance of house debris falling on the shelter. Course if there are trees, houses, and/or buildings all around the house, shelter placement might not make much difference....

Later,
Dan

Dan I was reading on the FEMA site that doors should face East or West I believe. Most of our Spring weather comes from the South and an odd-ball northern, but the storms seem to track in a NE direction???

 

[jerrybob]

Thanks Scott. Lots of tense moments; the first round on Sunday missed us by about 4 miles. We had some hail damage, loss electricity for about 4 hours; the surge fried my computer, so been out of touch. Am posting this from my Daughter's computer. This same storm went on to Shawnee, Carney. Yesterday again lots of rain, hail. loss of telephone service, (both land line and cell phone) but the big tornado set down about 20 miles South of us. Today just some rain and wind. The devastation is unimaginable. My brother and his two daughters (both teachers) all live in the area of the tornado, but all somehow escaped damage and injury. My Niece's schools all escaped damage and the kids are all OK. Have spent untold hours just watching the events unfold; the TV coverage has been amazing and the videos frightening. See you guys later when I get my computer back on line; but for now we're all OK.

Dennis

2lane........just got back in town.....thoughts and prayers are with you and your family. Glad you're OK....

 

[2LaneCruzer]

2lane........just got back in town.....thoughts and prayers are with you and your family. Glad you're OK....

Thank you for your concern. Looks like we have more coming this morning; hopefully no tornadoes, but the rain and possible flooding is not helping those poor unfortunates in Moore.

 

[dmccarty]

Dan,
we get hurricanes that come through our way for sure, but not these tornadoes anywhere near the scale of further West.
And since I'm considering a move to NC, I'm wondering, do you get tornadoes there? Do they make it "that far over?".
I always wondered if the mountain ranges of the East helped to buffer us from this violent weather.
Just curious to see/hear if things are heating up in your area.

I wonder if there is an updated map showing the areas of tornado damage historically. Time to improve building codes in those areas.
All schools, not just some, in those areas need to have safe rooms. Safe from Mother Nature's fury and the human crazies who prey on the helpless.

My county gets very few tornadoes and the ones we get are F0s and F1s and a few up to F3. At least so far. KNOCK ON WOOD!

There are a couple of web sites showing storm history, here is one. Tornado History Project: Maps and Statistics

NC specific tornado history is here. Tornadoes | State Climate Office of North Carolina There are a bunch of interesting maps that are hard to see until you click on them to enlarge the graphics. This one has the number of observed tornadoes in each county, http://www.nc-climate.ncsu.edu/images/climate/tornadoes/tornado_count_c.jpg

Years ago I found a site, I would have thought it was on the NC site I just linked, that had data on each tornado by county. There was information on storm strength, path, damage, injuries, death, etc., but I can't find this page now. <GRRRR>

Most of the tornadoes are Down East along the coast. In my county, we do not have very many tornadoes and the ones we get are small ones. You don't need a storm shelter for these smaller storms. If you look on the first NC link it has a table comparing damage to storm strength. Here is my edit of the table to make it sorta readable.

F0 (Gale) 40 - 72 mph Some damage to chimneys; breaks branches off trees; pushes over shallow-rooted trees; damages sign boards
F1 (Weak) 73 - 112 mph Peels surface off roofs; mobile homes pushed off foundations or overturned; moving autos pushed off roads
F2 (Strong) 113 - 157 mph Considerable damage. Roofs torn off frame houses; mobile homes demolished; boxcars pushed over; large trees snapped or uprooted; light object missiles generated
F3 (Severe) 158 - 207 mph Roof and some walls torn off well constructed houses; trains overturned; most trees in forests uprooted
F4 (Devastating) 208 - 260 mph Well-constructed houses leveled; structures with weak foundations blown off some distance; cars thrown and large missiles generated
F5 (Incredible) 261 - 318 mph Strong frame houses lifted off foundations and carried considerable distances to disintegrate; automobile sized missiles fly through the air in excess of 100 meters; trees debarked; steel reinforced concrete structures badly damaged

I looked at this information when designing our house and since we are not likely to have a tornado and what we do get are F3 or smaller, I decided to not build a storm room. I still want a storm cellar but I think I have better odds of winning the lottery than ever being hit by a tornado much less killed by one at our house. Having said that, I just don't understand how schools in tornado alley do not have storm shelters. I know some building codes out there require new homes to have storm shelters. Certainly schools should.

Later,
Dan

 

[dmccarty]

Dan I was reading on the FEMA site that doors should face East or West I believe. Most of our Spring weather comes from the South and an odd-ball northern, but the storms seem to track in a NE direction???

Take a look at this link, Tornado History Project: Maps and Statistics. You can zoom in and see the tracks.

I noticed the tracking on another website I surfed into. The site was talking about a large and deadly tornado outbreak in the mid 70s. This caught my eye because we moved to KY after the outbreak and our neighbor hood had been hit by a tornado and the website had the many tornado tracks from the outbreak. The tracks were from the SW to the NE.

Google scares and awes me. Here is the map I saw: https://www.google.com/search?q=fujita+tornado+maps&client=firefox-a&hs=PYC&sa=X&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&ei=dhyeUf_GIcbK0gG_6ID4BA&ved=0CD4QsAQ&biw=1575&bih=833#imgrc=PiuOI7zTkaWcfM%3A%3Buszn8e-j2R9qgM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.ustornadoes.com%252Fwp-content%252Fuploads%252F2013%252F04%252FFujita-Overlay.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.ustornadoes.com%252F2013%252F04%252F03%252Flooking-back-at-the-april-3-4-1974-super-outbreak%252F%3B1500%3B1433

Here is a nationwide map of tornado tracks from 1950 to 2011. You will have to page down to see it though. Storm Prediction Center Severe Weather GIS (SVRGIS) Page

It looks like most tornadoes track from the SW to the NE. There are exceptions. I saw some going W to E and a few that went S to N. What that tells me is that my storm shelter should be on the west side of the house.

Later,
Dan

 

[dmccarty]

Thank you for your concern. Looks like we have more coming this morning; hopefully no tornadoes, but the rain and possible flooding is not helping those poor unfortunates in Moore.

The rain stinks because it hampers clean up and damages anything left exposed that might have been saved....

Hopefully no more tornadoes....

Later,
Dan