Toyota vs. Ford

[Kubotasrking]

God love Toyota. What a great company. The parody and subsequent comments bring to mind some questions for me, and I think it appropriate since I too work in a factory...

If Toyota USA is managed by ex-ford/gm managers, and they still beat ford by a mile, how could that happen?

What is it about Ford's products that are inferior...design? value? depreciation rates? What could possibly explain this situation considering the Japanese companies have used TPM/Lean/Six Sigma for years, and now use American managers to run their sites here using the aforementioned principles? Is it Six Sigma, etc.? Managers? Structure? or something else?

I certainly have some strongly held opinions on this subject, but would love to hear what the group thinks.

 

[cp1969]

My feeling is that the American business practice of focusing on short-term results is what leads to disastrous results.

All of that junk (lean, 6S, etc.) is useful--but not when force-fed. Management types seem to think they're the only ones capable of grasping the concept of statistical variation and analysis. They go to some seminar, then come home with a new "toolkit" (a total mangling of the definition of that word) and force it upon the troops. "It worked so well in the seminar...it HAS to work here."

 

[Volfandt]

Is it Six Sigma, etc.? Managers? Structure? or something else?

Not sure what these are but if they have any relationship to the fact that far too many of our large North American companys are being run by MBA's that have no working knowledge of the products they are producing then they might be related

Why just today I had a very hard time trying to explain to 3 different mid level managers that the job couldn't be done today because the primary circuit hadn't been delivered yet. The ordering/coordination and scheduling of this job is of course their responsibility. All 3 wasted at least two hrs of my time as opposed to calling the circuit provider to verify what I was telling them. Finally, I got a 4th to call, and yes they agreed that the job couldn't cutover today.
Oh, and none of these 4 mid level managers had ever been out in the field and actually performed our primary reason for being a company, they worked their way up the corporate ladder from the inside .......

 

[RayH]

God love Toyota. What a great company. The parody and subsequent comments bring to mind some questions for me, and I think it appropriate since I too work in a factory...

If Toyota USA is managed by ex-ford/gm managers, and they still beat ford by a mile, how could that happen?

What is it about Ford's products that are inferior...design? value? depreciation rates? What could possibly explain this situation considering the Japanese companies have used TPM/Lean/Six Sigma for years, and now use American managers to run their sites here using the aforementioned principles? Is it Six Sigma, etc.? Managers? Structure? or something else?

I certainly have some strongly held opinions on this subject, but would love to hear what the group thinks.

Im going out on a limb and say its perception. Im not so sure that Japanese vehicles are any better than American vehicles. I think they are perceived to be better. That goes along way with consumers. Once a country gains momentum for producing quality products, its hard change it. The same goes for a country that gets a reputation for producing junk. its hard to change that reputation.
Take someone who buys a Ford, against the recommendation of everyone who told him to buy a Toyota. If one or two little things go wrong with the Ford, he starts thinking, "maybe I shouldve gotten a Toyota" and he goes out a trades the Ford for a Toyota and tells everyone he knows that he traded the Ford off because it was a piece of crap. Was the Ford really a piece of crap or did he just perceive it to be a piece of crap because he was told that it was.
The fact is that most every mechanical part of most american cars is made in Japan or some other Asian country and many japanese cars are assembled in the US. So how can we say that Japanese cars are better than American. Its possible that Toyotas are better then Fords but only on a company verses company comparison and not country verses country.

 

[Kubotasrking]

Not sure what these are but if they have any relationship to the fact that far too many of our large North American companys are being run by MBA's that have no working knowledge of the products they are producing then they might be related

Six Sigma, Lean Mfg, Autonomous Maint, 5S, etc.. are all designed to reduce waste and improve processes to drive increased productivity/quality/etc... Most of these processes we make fun of in the thread are engrained throughout companies from Japan, and we actually copied it from them. I have no objection to the comments that MBAs do not have working knowledge, and agree completely. I see it every single day. That being said, why are Toyota's MBAs not encountering the same issues with the same processes that Ford's are? Is it the school they graduate from? Is it Ford Motor Company, that actually revolutionized manufacturing as we know it (still use the assembly line...) that has suddenly gotten stupid (Same family still runs it...)?

I certainly am not advocating that the company's leadership is perfect, I'm sure they're not. That being said, it is my view that we all seem to bite the hand that feeds us, and in the case of GM & Ford, throngs of employees who have a sense of entitlement, and as a result, are disengaged from making the highest quality product for the lowest price possible. They too must be a part of the discussion. While it is convenient to point to the CEO who was paid off with a golden parachute (pretty disgusting if you ask me), it is pocket change in relation to paying 1000's of people to produce the absolute minimum under the guise of "job security". I'm not suggesting that people shouldn't receive an excellent wage for excellent work, rather, asserting that excellent wages for medicore work becomes an issue at some point for employers. My company struggles with all these issues too, and my fear is I will be looking for work in 10 years when our plant shuts down. I will have 27 years in at that time...I/we need to change our workforce to save our jobs.

For me, I like how Costco does it, and my wife and I shop there because of it. Some links below outline how a great company does great business. He**, even the CEO does it right...which has become altogether too uncommon.

How Costco Became the Anti-Wal-Mart - New York Times

Costco: The 'anti-Wal-Mart' - MSN Money

 

[RayH]

So what do you think the difference between the Toyota plant in Georgetown KY and the Ford plant in Dearborn is? Do you think the union workers and lower/middle management in KY are just better than the ones in MI? No, of course not. If theres a quality difference coming from those plants, its in the ranks of the upper management.
The workers are the backbone of any company but the upper management is the nervious system that tells the backbone what to do. If the backbone isnt told what to do, it just gets weak and goes limp.
My personal opinion is that the gap in quality isnt as big as most people believe it is, but what gap is there is not because of the american worker, its because of poor leadership up high that trickles down.

 

[Volfandt]

That being said, why are Toyota's MBAs not encountering the same issues with the same processes that Ford's are?

I believe that part of the reason that Japanese MBA's MAY be more knowledgeable of the products they produce is based on the fact that they generally stay with the same company throughout their carreers. I don't think that they bring in a bean counter from another company and give him the keys to the ship. Part of their prerequisit for advancement within the company is based upon their knowledge of what their company does from the ground up. And more importantly I don't think they stress "sales" over "quality" either.....

Funny, I remember when products that were imported from Japan were considered cheap and throw-away.....

Im going out on a limb and say its perception. Im not so sure that Japanese vehicles are any better than American vehicles. I think they are perceived to be better.

Unfortunately when it comes to compact & sub compact cars & trucks it's not perception, its fact.
My Mrs used to prefer small cars over any other size so over the years we made our rounds through the best American manufactured cars available at the time. Unfortunately we were driven to Toyota because of the shortcomings of these American made and/or American branded compacts/sub compacts.
We went through a Vega, Chevette, J2000 Sunbird and even up to a Thunderbird and had MAJOR problems with them all. We had better luck with a Saturn but it started useing a qrt of oil every 400 miles after 75k.
We then went to a Corolla and when we traded it at 80k miles we NEVER had it in shop for anything other than scheduled maintenance and that was an oil change and tire rotation every 5k miles. We've since traded it on a RAV 4 (Mrs wanted a small SUV) and so far with 20k miles it's been trouble free.
We we gave the Saturn to my daughter for her 1st car, we decided we weren;t looking at the traditional 3 again for a small auto......

Conversely, what America DID do very well was 1/2 ton and up pickup trucks. I have a 98 F150 w/118K miles and it's been virtually trouble free but it cost nearly 2 1/2 times more than those sub compact cars did.
But now that may be changeing too.....

Perhaps the mind set of our North American manufacturers is to do it "right" when the return is larger on the big ticket products than the products they just want to throw out and try make a quick/fast profit on.
I dunno, there used to be a time when I wouldn't buy a product that I "thought" wasn't American made then I started doing research on just where these traditionally American branded cars/trucks were made and I was both shocked and surprised. When I realised that with the world economy we now live in, that I was buying inports at times when I didn't think I was. AND that some "foreign" branded cars/trucks were being manufactured in plants that were located in America and by American workers!

With the stories of the "golden parachutes" and outragous bonus's and other perks the upper management of American branded auto manufacturers are getting I decided I'd rather my money go to support the actual CRAFTSMEN that make the auto's than to traditionally greedy millionares....... It's their right in this great country to take capitalism to the highest level and conversely it's also my right in this great country to buy the best product available at the best price.
And unfortunately our fine institutions of higher learning are producing MBA's that know how to count the beans but the can't make a &^%$#@ thing......

OF course this is JMHO

 

[_RaT_]

"Unfortunately when it comes to compact & sub compact cars & trucks it's not perception, its fact."


Volfandt, thats my perception too. I do 99% of the work on our vehicles. I know from my experience, from my mechanic friends and from consumer reporting that this view is supported by them as well. Obviously not in every case, but overall, I have no question in my mind. I would love for it to be otherwise, but I give credit where I think it is due. GM and Ford are being forced to either step up or step out. What will the next 10 or 15 years be like?

 

[RayH]

Unfortunately when it comes to compact & sub compact cars & trucks it's not perception, its fact.
My Mrs used to prefer small cars over any other size so over the years we made our rounds through the best American manufactured cars available at the time. Unfortunately we were driven to Toyota because of the shortcomings of these American made and/or American branded compacts/sub compacts.
We went through a Vega, Chevette, J2000 Sunbird and even up to a Thunderbird and had MAJOR problems with them all. We had better luck with a Saturn but it started useing a qrt of oil every 400 miles after 75k.
We then went to a Corolla and when we traded it at 80k miles we NEVER had it in shop for anything other than scheduled maintenance and that was an oil change and tire rotation every 5k miles. We've since traded it on a RAV 4 (Mrs wanted a small SUV) and so far with 20k miles it's been trouble free.
We we gave the Saturn to my daughter for her 1st car, we decided we weren;t looking at the traditional 3 again for a small auto......

Thats the perception Im talking about. You stated you had a Vega, Chevette ect. How long ago was that, 30 years? Your perception of small american cars started 30 years ago and now, to you, its so ingrained that you consider it fact. Then to help make your point, you throw in praise for a Corolla with only 80000, and the RAV4 with only 20000 miles on it. Is 20000 or even 80000 miles even enough to draw a conclusion? No. but you throw it in there anyway. This is how reputation is built and burned. Now a future car shopper reads something like this and thinks, Hmmmm, "he says his Corolla and Rav4 are holding up well, good enough for me". The fact is, you dont know if the Rav4 is holding up well yet. The only reason you believe the Rav4 is holding up well is because you heard it would. Now you are passing along something you heard as fact before its even happened.
My wife and I bought a Kia last year. Its got about 30000 on it now and we havent had a seconds trouble out of it but Im not going to telling anyone that Korean cars are better than or as good as American or Japanese cars because our little Kia has gone 30000 miles without a problem.

I do agree that samll cars have been the Japanese niche for many more years than for the American builders. This was espacially true 30 years ago, but the gap is norrowing and over the last few years, the American manufactures have been playing catch up both in technology and in the perception of the consumer and they have made remarkable gains since the days of the Vega. I suspect that when the people who can remember the Vega and the Chevette die, so will that perception of american small cars, if for no other reason that there is no 100% "american" car out there anymore and that Corolla you had was built in america and that Ford Focus is stuffed to the gils with Japanese parts.
Years from now, this generation of young drivers will look back on their early days of driving and remember that Dodge Neon or american assembled Honda or Toyota fondly.

 

[Bird]

Unfortunately when it comes to compact & sub compact cars & trucks it's not perception, its fact.
My Mrs used to prefer small cars over any other size so over the years we made our rounds through the best American manufactured cars available at the time. Unfortunately we were driven to Toyota because of the shortcomings of these American made and/or American branded compacts/sub compacts.
We went through a Vega, Chevette, J2000 Sunbird and even up to a Thunderbird and had MAJOR problems with them all. We had better luck with a Saturn but it started useing a qrt of oil every 400 miles after 75k.
We then went to a Corolla and when we traded it at 80k miles we NEVER had it in shop for anything other than scheduled maintenance and that was an oil change and tire rotation every 5k miles. We've since traded it on a RAV 4 (Mrs wanted a small SUV) and so far with 20k miles it's been trouble free.

I'm afraid Ray was right. Your experience was too long ago, and I think you really did try some of the worst that GM built. I bought a new 1966 Ford Fairlane 500 that I figure was quite likely the worst lemon that Ford ever built. So, for 25 years you couldn't have given me a Ford (yep, none of us always base our decisions strictly on logical facts). Then in 1993, I bought a new Ford Escort to tow behind our motorhome. We towed it 15k miles and drove it 106k, so it had 121k on the odometer, and was 6 years old, when my wife rolled it and totalled it. It still looked and drove like a new one. I changed oil every 3k miles; never added any between changes. It was not broken down or anything like that, but I did have timing belt, spark plugs, plug wires, and front brake pads replaced at a little over 80k miles. And it was in the shop overnight once when it was new for warranty work.

So now we have an '01 Ford Ranger with 51k miles on it and an '01 Ford Windstar with just over 80k miles on it. No intentions of replacing either in the foreseeable future, but of course we never know what might happen next.