had a gentleman bout 15 miles from me who was a preacher. our paper said he was dragging a tree. he was useing an old international and the tree got hung up. the tractor flipped over backwards and the man was crushed. of couse the tractor had no rops. and i use to use an old farmall cub to pull logs without a rops. guess i was lucky,,and glad my kubota has one.
tractor roleover
- Thread starter oakwood
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Thats a sad story....growing up I operated an old Farmall 140 all over our hilly farm,clipping the pastures etc...I was lucky...some of the places I went and some of the things I done.....I would never have a tractor without ROP and of course the seat belt has to be included and used with any ROP.
Cliff_Johns
Elite Member
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( he was dragging a tree. he was useing an old international and the tree got hung up. the tractor flipped over backwards )</font>
For this to happen, I think he had to have had the tree tied to the tractor above the axel line, unless I'm misreading it..
Cliff
For this to happen, I think he had to have had the tree tied to the tractor above the axel line, unless I'm misreading it..
Cliff
Henro
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<font color="blue"> Could've been on an incline. Gerard </font>
I'm having trouble seeing how a properyly attached pulling line could cause a back flip, on the level or on an incline...
Pulling from below the rear axle sure looks like it should never cause a back flip, whatever the angle of the land.
If I were from the right state, I'd say show me how. But I'm from PA so I'll just say I am /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif by that thought... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
I'm having trouble seeing how a properyly attached pulling line could cause a back flip, on the level or on an incline...
Pulling from below the rear axle sure looks like it should never cause a back flip, whatever the angle of the land.
If I were from the right state, I'd say show me how. But I'm from PA so I'll just say I am /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif by that thought... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
GaryE
Platinum Member
<font color="blue">I'm having trouble seeing how a properyly attached pulling line could cause a back flip </font>
Henro,
It has happened to me more than once while skidding logs on my little B6000. If you have any forward momentum that is suddenly stopped by the load, the torque of the tractor will want to continue to keep the wheels turning. If you have any traction at all the wheels will stop / slow down, but the tractor keeps pulling. The end result is the front end starts to lift. I have been almost at 45 degrees before I jumped on the clutch. And yes, that was with the load hooked under the axle.
It can happen so quickly I have learned to have my left foot ready to jump on the clutch. If you would like to see it happen I will be cutting some more firewood this spring and if you would like to help!!!!!!!!!!
Gary
Henro,
It has happened to me more than once while skidding logs on my little B6000. If you have any forward momentum that is suddenly stopped by the load, the torque of the tractor will want to continue to keep the wheels turning. If you have any traction at all the wheels will stop / slow down, but the tractor keeps pulling. The end result is the front end starts to lift. I have been almost at 45 degrees before I jumped on the clutch. And yes, that was with the load hooked under the axle.
It can happen so quickly I have learned to have my left foot ready to jump on the clutch. If you would like to see it happen I will be cutting some more firewood this spring and if you would like to help!!!!!!!!!!
Gary
Henro
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<font color="blue"> If you have any forward momentum that is suddenly stopped by the load, the torque of the tractor will want to continue to keep the wheels turning. If you have any traction at all the wheels will stop / slow down, but the tractor keeps pulling. The end result is the front end starts to lift. I have been almost at 45 degrees before I jumped on the clutch. And yes, that was with the load hooked under the axle.
</font>
That's interesting. And I don't want to sound like I don't believe it. Because I tend to value experience over theory.
But I wonder how that could happen. Or better put, why that would happen.
For example, it make good sense that if one's tires were frozen to the ground, and he tried to drive forward, that the tractor would rotate around the rear axle in the back flip mode.
But if there happened to be a cable or chain tied to the draw bar, and secured to a large tree, then it also seems that this would counter the back flip tendency, and the engine would stall rather than being able to back flip the tractor.
So I guess the answer has to be that the torque applied to the rear wheels, when it is all said an done, exceeds the amount of torque that is available to counter the back flip, as applied by the cable/chain/load pulling back on the draw bar.
Very interesting.
I can see how this could be the case. I wonder if the tractor manufacturers take this possibility into consideration when determining the distance below the rear axle that the draw bar is placed at?
Bottom line is for a back flip to occur, the torque available to rotate the tractor backwards about the rear axle has to be greater than the torque that results from the pull against the draw bar, which is below the axle and tends to keep the front wheels on the ground.
Almost counter intuitive, but very possible when one take real world experience and considers it with an open mind...
</font>
That's interesting. And I don't want to sound like I don't believe it. Because I tend to value experience over theory.
But I wonder how that could happen. Or better put, why that would happen.
For example, it make good sense that if one's tires were frozen to the ground, and he tried to drive forward, that the tractor would rotate around the rear axle in the back flip mode.
But if there happened to be a cable or chain tied to the draw bar, and secured to a large tree, then it also seems that this would counter the back flip tendency, and the engine would stall rather than being able to back flip the tractor.
So I guess the answer has to be that the torque applied to the rear wheels, when it is all said an done, exceeds the amount of torque that is available to counter the back flip, as applied by the cable/chain/load pulling back on the draw bar.
Very interesting.
I can see how this could be the case. I wonder if the tractor manufacturers take this possibility into consideration when determining the distance below the rear axle that the draw bar is placed at?
Bottom line is for a back flip to occur, the torque available to rotate the tractor backwards about the rear axle has to be greater than the torque that results from the pull against the draw bar, which is below the axle and tends to keep the front wheels on the ground.
Almost counter intuitive, but very possible when one take real world experience and considers it with an open mind...
slowrev
Elite Member
Many people when snaking logs hook it to the lift so they can lift up the front of the log a bit. Then the log gets hung up so the front of the tractor comes up a bit, then the log can come loose and shoot up under the tractor adding rolover action to the situation....Not sure what happened here but....
In any case a sad event.
Ben
In any case a sad event.
Ben
Jeff396
Veteran Member
<font color="blue">Bottom line is for a back flip to occur, the torque available to rotate the tractor backwards about the rear axle has to be greater than the torque that results from the pull against the draw bar, which is below the axle and tends to keep the front wheels on the ground. </font>
I would assume that the tires aren't going to get perfect traction. I wonder if while the front end rises, the tires slip a bit and the non moving load actually ends up pulling the tractor back a bit while it's on its way over. Sort of a moonwalk thing. I wouldn't think the distance that the tractor would have to be pulled back would be all that great with the load attached a short distance below the axle.
Jeff
I would assume that the tires aren't going to get perfect traction. I wonder if while the front end rises, the tires slip a bit and the non moving load actually ends up pulling the tractor back a bit while it's on its way over. Sort of a moonwalk thing. I wouldn't think the distance that the tractor would have to be pulled back would be all that great with the load attached a short distance below the axle.
Jeff
GaryE
Platinum Member
<font color="blue"> I wonder if while the front end rises, the tires slip a bit and the non moving load actually ends up pulling the tractor back a bit while it's on its way over. </font>
Jeff,
I think you are correct, I seem to remember at least once there was some tire chatter / bouncing that would allow for some "moon walking". At least on the B6000 the loading point / draw bar is so close to the center of rotation of the axle, it would not have to move back that far. It is not a ride I would like to do many more times. The B6000 has no ROPS.
Gary
Jeff,
I think you are correct, I seem to remember at least once there was some tire chatter / bouncing that would allow for some "moon walking". At least on the B6000 the loading point / draw bar is so close to the center of rotation of the axle, it would not have to move back that far. It is not a ride I would like to do many more times. The B6000 has no ROPS.
Gary
frank_f15
Super Member, Rest in Peace
i wonder how fast he was going? i have skidded a few logs and trees , and if you are going slow AND are hooked up below the axel , if something snags you should be able to stop before a back flip. when skidding something like that i also use one of those kids sledding tubes under the end to help it slide and not dig in.
Henro:
Some things just can't be explained.
NASCAR and others flip 5..10...15 times end over end and the driver walks away.
When Dale Earnhardt hit the wall EVERYBODY said it looked like nothing. We know the outcome. Gerard
Some things just can't be explained.
NASCAR and others flip 5..10...15 times end over end and the driver walks away.
When Dale Earnhardt hit the wall EVERYBODY said it looked like nothing. We know the outcome. Gerard
Tinkerer
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I doubt he did everything by the book. Possible, but not likely, at least in my opinion. In most cases of back flips people either hook up wrong (read top link on three point tractors) , or are going too fast to react, or sometimes both. I have pulled a fair amount of logs out and you must go slow and steady. When you get going too fast, a flip is very likely if the load suddenly gets hung up. If you are going slow,you can react to the load getting hung, in most cases you will sense it before it happens.
rdbrumfield
Veteran Member
I have had many years of using a tractor to pull logs and heavy loads. Yes, you can pull the front of the tractor off the ground with the tow chains hooked below the differential. Also, pulling from the three point drawbar, you have to realize that when the front starts to come up the drawbar stays level, it doesn't go down to relieve traction. Pulling with tractors that don't have loaders on them increases the risk of coming over backwards. I have noticed that even just dropping the clutch on my TO 30 ferguson, bare tractor, it will pop the front tires off the ground without anything hooked to it. When pulling with all the tractors that I have had with loaders, they spin out way before the frontend gets very light. Not to say they won't in the right conditions.
Tinkerer
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Yeah, I understand what you are saying. I think it is unlikely that he did nothing to cause it, but I will agree that it is certainly possible. Sometimes you can do everything right and still end up dead.
RoyJackson
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I don't skid too many trees, and the biggest one I've done was 25'-30' in length with a trunk about 12" across.
I pick the end up with the loader bucket and then rig the chain to the end bucket hooks. Then, I drive in reverse.
Now, my purpose is to move the tree without digging into the lawn. However, this does prevent a rear flip.
This requires a bit of common sense when one is rigging to the bucket hooks to prevent twisting the loader bucket or frame. It wouldn't work with a bigger tree, nor would it be an efficient method if moving a lot of trees.
If one is skidding logs as a business, I should hope they'd have a cage, rather then just a ROPS. But for us occasional users, this method works pretty good.
I pick the end up with the loader bucket and then rig the chain to the end bucket hooks. Then, I drive in reverse.
Now, my purpose is to move the tree without digging into the lawn. However, this does prevent a rear flip.
This requires a bit of common sense when one is rigging to the bucket hooks to prevent twisting the loader bucket or frame. It wouldn't work with a bigger tree, nor would it be an efficient method if moving a lot of trees.
If one is skidding logs as a business, I should hope they'd have a cage, rather then just a ROPS. But for us occasional users, this method works pretty good.
Henro
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<font color="blue"> Now, my purpose is to move the tree without digging into the lawn. However, this does prevent a rear flip. </font>
Roy, I am going to agree and disagree at the same time... /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
THe agree part is a rear flip could possibly happen, if for example you crashed into the right thing while moving backwards at speed. Or if you fell off a wall, or whatever. A back flip could happen.
But when backing up the dynamics seem to be reversed, just like they are if one were to move the tractor when the wheels were stuck to the ground. When trying to go forward, the tractor wants to lift the front wheels. In reverse, the tractor wants to push the front wheels down.
So I THINK, GUESS AND ASSUME that if you would be pulling backwards with a log in the bucket or somehow hooked to the bucket, that you would be in the mode to minimize a back flip opportunity, unless you did not pay attention to where you were going.
Just the way I understand it. I don't know if this is truly correct or not. Appreciate any feedback that will set me straight...if I am missing something.
Especially since I always feel safe when pulling backwards with something chained to my center bucket hook. I don't mind being fat, dumb and happy, but I sure don't want to be fat, dumb and dead...
Roy, I am going to agree and disagree at the same time... /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
THe agree part is a rear flip could possibly happen, if for example you crashed into the right thing while moving backwards at speed. Or if you fell off a wall, or whatever. A back flip could happen.
But when backing up the dynamics seem to be reversed, just like they are if one were to move the tractor when the wheels were stuck to the ground. When trying to go forward, the tractor wants to lift the front wheels. In reverse, the tractor wants to push the front wheels down.
So I THINK, GUESS AND ASSUME that if you would be pulling backwards with a log in the bucket or somehow hooked to the bucket, that you would be in the mode to minimize a back flip opportunity, unless you did not pay attention to where you were going.
Just the way I understand it. I don't know if this is truly correct or not. Appreciate any feedback that will set me straight...if I am missing something.
Especially since I always feel safe when pulling backwards with something chained to my center bucket hook. I don't mind being fat, dumb and happy, but I sure don't want to be fat, dumb and dead...
RoyJackson
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"Just the way I understand it. I don't know if this is truly correct or not. Appreciate any feedback that will set me straight...if I am missing something"
Well, I'm normally running at less then higher RPM, so I don't think I'd run into anything at speed....and I do watch where I'm going.
However, as mentioned, this is for a one or two log operation. If moving any serious quantity of logs, running in reverse isn't practical.
Well, I'm normally running at less then higher RPM, so I don't think I'd run into anything at speed....and I do watch where I'm going.
However, as mentioned, this is for a one or two log operation. If moving any serious quantity of logs, running in reverse isn't practical.
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