Trailer choice before I make a mistake

[Fallon]

Gooseneck has placement for 20%-25% of the trailer load to be placed on the tow vehicle.

Bumper pulls typically are designed to have 10%-12% of the trailer load weight to be placed on the tow vehicle.

That gives a Gooseneck a nice advantage in payload, a 4500 lb bare and 14k goose that moves 22% to the truck rear axle can legally have more payload than a 4100 lb bumper pull that gets 12% of the load onto the truck rear axle.

The goose or fifth always wins that fight.

A goose/5th is also pushing that weight straight down directly or close to the rear axle. A pumper pull is pushing down many feet behind the rear axle. On my 35' 12,000lbs toy hauler properly loaded. I have 1,500lbs of tongue weight.

Actual Cat scale weights on the front axle of my F350:
Truck only 5,300
Truck + trailer 4,620
Truck + trailer + weight distribution hitch cranked all the way up 5,000

Bumper pull doesn't just make the rear squat, it actually lifts & unloads the front. A WDH can counteract some of that, but is a pain.

Interestingly I only use a WDH on the toy hauler. My 22' deckover & tractor/impliments come to 10-12k, about the same as the toy hauler. I have a weigh safe hitch & always balance the load for 1.1-1.6k lbs. The deckover with a standard hitch pulls as good or better than the toy haulervwith a WDH. Length of trailer & surface area to catch wind have a lot to do with things.

I really wish my toy hauler was a goose or 5th. But I feel no desire to change out my deckover from bumper pull. Granted the deckover only does short runs under 30-45 minutes & rarely at freeway speeds. Where the RV trailer is longer runs often at freeway speeds. I rarely take it over 65 even though Colorado speed limits are usually 75. It just tows to twitchy & nervously at speed.

 

[nikerret]

Gooseneck has placement for 20%-25% of the trailer load to be placed on the tow vehicle.

Bumper pulls typically are designed to have 10%-12% of the trailer load weight to be placed on the tow vehicle.

That gives a Gooseneck a nice advantage in payload, a 4500 lb bare and 14k goose that moves 22% to the truck rear axle can legally have more payload than a 4100 lb bumper pull that gets 12% of the load onto the truck rear axle.

The goose or fifth always wins that fight.

That’s not an advantage, if the truck can handle that extra payload. Most F-250/2500 series trucks can’t, legally. Also, a 14k GVWR gooseneck and a 14k bumper pull, both built the same, sans connection method, do not have the same payload. The bumper pull will have more, since it weighs less than the gooseneck.

GVWR minus the weight of the trailer equals the payload capacity. Some trailer manufacturers rate goosenecks higher, to give the goosenecks an advantage, a lot don’t. I refuse to buy a trailer that has the GVWR as just the sum of the axle ratings. I want to be able to use the tongue weight, to give me a payload advantage.

Yup. And there is nothing on the door sticker referencing and "tow rating".

Just front GAWR, rear GAWR and the total GVWR.

No reference at all to anything regarding towing.

Don't exceed any individual axle rating of truck or trailer, don't exceed any tire rating, and don't exceed any hitch rating and you are legal.

Don't try and pull a 12k or 14k trailer with a 10k hitch....or a cheap parts store insert with a ball rated for 6k.

GM did start putting more information, in the door. I believe it now includes the GCWR and maybe one other thing, over the old way of just listing the axles and GVWR. It is a pretty new thing.

 

[nikerret]

GM did start putting more information, in the door. I believe it now includes the GCWR and maybe one other thing, over the old way of just listing the axles and GVWR. It is a pretty new thing.

Found an example:

 

[LD1]

GVWR minus the weight of the trailer equals the payload capacity.

Technically its the trailers axle ratings....minus the empty weight....PLUS the hitch weight = payload.

Those trailers that are rated at 15k GVWR but only have a pair of 7k axles is why I said the trailers axle ratings and NOT the GVWR. Because those trailers are already accounting for a little tongue weight.

A 14k bumper pull that weighs 3k empty....loaded at capacity will have 10% tongue weight. So a 12.5k load, 3k trailer weight = 15.5k......but but 1500# on the hitch and you are still at 14k on the axles.

A 14k GN that weighs 4k. Put the same 12.5k load on....total 16.5k....but put 20% on the hitch which is ~3300# and now you only have 13.2k on the axles. So "technically" the GN would be legal to haul a little more. Because it is capable of putting MORE weight on the tow vehicle than the difference in the trailer weights.

 

[nikerret]

Technically its the trailers axle ratings....minus the empty weight....PLUS the hitch weight = payload.

Incorrect. Gross Vehicle Weight Rating has one meaning. It’s used the same way, across the industry. Technically (meaning using actual definitions), the payload capacity is the GVWR (whatever the manufacturer specs that as) minus the weight of the trailer is the payload. Many companies even include stickers, helping explain:

You can’t go over your GVWR and be within the ratings. You may be able to go over and still be within axle ratings, that’s a different discussion.

 

[nikerret]

Technically its the trailers axle ratings....minus the empty weight....PLUS the hitch weight = payload.

Those trailers that are rated at 15k GVWR but only have a pair of 7k axles is why I said the trailers axle ratings and NOT the GVWR. Because those trailers are already accounting for a little tongue weight.

A 14k bumper pull that weighs 3k empty....loaded at capacity will have 10% tongue weight. So a 12.5k load, 3k trailer weight = 15.5k......but but 1500# on the hitch and you are still at 14k on the axles.

A 14k GN that weighs 4k. Put the same 12.5k load on....total 16.5k....but put 20% on the hitch which is ~3300# and now you only have 13.2k on the axles. So "technically" the GN would be legal to haul a little more. Because it is capable of putting MORE weight on the tow vehicle than the difference in the trailer weights.

I knew this seemed familiar. You didn’t learn anything, last time. I doubt you will, this time. No reason to respond, being the loudest doesn’t make you right. Unless you have something, other than “I say so”, to refute the multiple links I posted. Which you won’t, because it only exists, in your mind.

Here is the link to the last time he told me how wrong he was by repeating his own incorrect information:

Want to buy a dump trailer, kinda torn here.

Pretty much any trailer that needed a CDL to begin with needs a class A. A class B only covers straight trucks with a 9999 pound or less trailer.

www.tractorbynet.com

 

[Rock Crawler]

I can tell you this. My 7k gross utility that weighs 2k has a payload of 6k with 1k tongue weight. That's per the manufacture, Quality Trailers in Ohio.

Similar, my Grand Design 311BHS with 14K gross fifth wheel has a pair of 6k axles under it and accounts for 3k pin weight on the truck.

When your scaled, they don't weigh the axles and the coupler and add them. They weigh the axles.... period. If your gross is 7K than the trailer axles better not be over 7k. You can another 2k on the coupler, but that's not part of the trailer weight, that's going to the payload on the truck.

Argue it if you want, but you'll be wrong while thinking your right.

 

[LD1]

I knew this seemed familiar. You didn’t learn anything, last time. I doubt you will, this time. No reason to respond, being the loudest doesn’t make you right. Unless you have something, other than “I say so”, to refute the multiple links I posted. Which you won’t, because it only exists, in your mind.

Here is the link to the last time he told me how wrong he was by repeating his own incorrect information:

Want to buy a dump trailer, kinda torn here.

Pretty much any trailer that needed a CDL to begin with needs a class A. A class B only covers straight trucks with a 9999 pound or less trailer.

www.tractorbynet.com

Im not wrong. And if you do care to go back and re-read the thread you linked while pounding your chest.....you will see NONE of my posts in that thread arguing with you or about GVW. You were arguing with someone else.

And for every link or source you can cite saying what you claim....I can cite an equally credible source saying what I claim is true. Case in point is rock crawlers post above.

Seems even the trailer manufactures are confused.

If you get stopped and scaled they are gonna make sure you ain't over axle ratings. This hitch load is not on trailer axles...rather the trucks.

If you have a 14k trailer....you can put 14k on the axles.....period. not my fault that some manufactures choose the incorrect CYA method of GVWR minus empty weight for payload

 

[nikerret]

When your scaled, they don't weigh the axles and the coupler and add them. They weigh the axles.... period.

What they choose to look at is up to the investigating LEO. I have had trucks disconnect from the trailers and weighed the trailer, alone. I have seen other LEO’s do it, too. That may not be how you conduct vehicle inspections, but it is a way some do. Also, not all inspections are the same. In fact, the variables are different.

Every time a driver crosses a jurisdictional boundary, the application of law can be viewed differently. My posts are written towards a best practice to best limit liability and exposure.

Here is an example of how things can be different, all based on the same laws. A lot of it comes down to what the Judges believe/allow.

Reckless driving tends to be a catch-all, for anything safety-related, that isn’t already covered, but its own Statute. When I went to the Academy, speed could not be the only contributing factor, toward a reckless driving charge. Some LEO’s were under the impression anything over 100 MPH met the factors necessary. We had a case go to court where a Trooper had arrested a driver, for going over 100 MPH. No other issues, just “excessive” speed. The Judge dismissed the reckless driving charge. The Prosecutor’s office later sent out an opinion on reckless driving. The way our Judges viewed reckless driving was it had to be a combination of factors. Some examples given, if speed was over 100 MPH, were if there was an unwilling passenger or if they were minors (and not the children of the driver), if the vehicle passed unwilling motorists (other motorists were assumed to be unwilling participants, unless it appeared they were running with the reckless driver/speeder), or if the vehicle was not in a condition to run at those speeds. One way the vehicle could be shown to be unsafe, thus reckless driving could be applied, was if the speed rating of any tire was lower than the speed they were going. You won’t find the speed rating of a tire in any Statute I’m aware of, but it can be a factor considered, for other charges.

Argue it if you want, but you'll be wrong while thinking your right.

You tell me I’m wrong and give examples explaining your perspective. However, you can’t seem to show me how I’m wrong. I’m coming from a background relative to our discussion and how I’ve seen these principles applied. Please, show me something that is official or at least, third party professional, that supports your argument. I’m not unwilling to learn. I am unwilling to take your word that runs contrary to everything I have experienced and read.





ETA: I am not currently a LEO. I was from 2008-2020.

 

[4570Man]

Im not wrong. And if you do care to go back and re-read the thread you linked while pounding your chest.....you will see NONE of my posts in that thread arguing with you or about GVW. You were arguing with someone else.

And for every link or source you can cite saying what you claim....I can cite an equally credible source saying what I claim is true. Case in point is rock crawlers post above.

Seems even the trailer manufactures are confused.

If you get stopped and scaled they are gonna make sure you ain't over axle ratings. This hitch load is not on trailer axles...rather the trucks.

If you have a 14k trailer....you can put 14k on the axles.....period. not my fault that some manufactures choose the incorrect CYA method of GVWR minus empty weight for payload

Some trailers do consider hitch weight when they’re rating them. Some trailers don’t. I used to have a trailer rated for 22,000 gross weight with 10k axels under it. My 14k tilt trailer is rated for 11,000 pounds and it weighs more than 3k. My pintle hook trailer that’s the heaviest duty of the 3 that I’m convinced is de rated has claimed 10k axels and it’s only rated to carry 14,500.