Tree came down in the storms--opinions?

[TCJatko]

One thing you need to consider is that the trunk might be under considerable torsion. If it's hung up by a single limb, the trunk will want to twist unpredictably when you cut through it. Be careful.

 

[forgeblast]

Can you tell me more about the physics that will cause it to snap up? I can't see how it's under any tension that will cause that, but I know that hung trees can behave in unexpected ways. If you're thinking its teeter-tottering on the manger, it's not. It's totally hung up at the top.

Sure the root ball is being held in the ground still by all the roots, once you release the tension or weight on the top of the tree the root ball will snap back. There was a post in the safety area a few months back where a child was killed when then went under the ball when their grandpa was cutting. The root back came back and crushed the poor kid.
For the physics of it: It has potential energy right now due to the position of the body.

 

[Gary Fowler]

After removing all the fencing and shed boards that might be damaged, I would cut it about 10 feet or so from the ground and let it fall. I would cut a V notch in the top side about 1/4th way thru , then undercut the rest similar to felling a tree. The V will let the tree bend at that point so it doesn't bind. Then take your tractor and drag the tree backward so the top comes loose from the trees. Cut up the tree into manageable sections for removal. Then using your tractor, twist the stump portion out of the ground using the 10 foot section as a lever. This is assuming that you have some free area behind the tree to position the tractor. If not, just repeat the process working your way up the tree till you have some tractor room and then drag the rest of the tree out of the tangle. All done.

 

[joe t]

I'd go borrow a big tractor and hold the log up to the left of the manger. Then go a few feet to the right of the fence and cut the log with a pole saw. After that you could probably move it around enough and/or cut it to drop it onto the ground without hitting anything.


I wouldn't tell the person I'm borrowing the tractor from what I was doing :laughing:

 

[Larro Darro]

... ugh. Just checked my insurance documents and it looks like I've got a $1000 deductible.

Looks like it's time to gas up the saw. I like Bruce's idea of the cross tie. And looking at the rootball zoomed in close, you may have some upward pressure. Whatever way you start, watch it closely so your saw doesn't pinch. According to how it's hung up, it could come down after the first cut, so be ready for that. With the fence down, you should be able to bring your bobcat on the inside. Once you have it cut at the base, ease it over using the 6X6 posts as skids.

 

[dmccarty]

I guess what you're saying is if somehow it is under compression along its length, as soon as the base is cut free, it's going to spring out. My mental image of the forces at play is that it's basically a suspended beam, hanging from its ends. If that's the case, then when one end is cut free, it'll just fall down. But if, as it fell, it ended up under compression, it could give a nasty surprise.

Thanks.

The other wild card in this one is that manger. When the tree is cut from the root ball, is that manager going to collapse? The stump could be preventing the tree from sliding off the other tree and when the tree is cut from the root ball, the trunk could slide backwards, if the manger can hold the weight. My first impression was that the tree is going to crush the manger when freed from the root ball but it might not. If the manger does not collapse, the tree top could slide down which could cause the cut end of the tree to move up. Course, as others said, the tree could roll as well.

I have had smaller pine trees spring back a good three feet. I did not know they were compressed but they surely where.

I would be surprised if this stump moves since it is a pine. I had a tree that was pushed down by loggers and the root ball was completely out of the ground. When I was topping the tree, the tree started to move up each time I cut off a section. Eventually, with about 10-15 feet of trunk remaining the tree fell UP. It was like a Weeble that wombles but would not fall down. :laughing::laughing::laughing: The root balls I have seen and read about, that fall back into the hole, where shallow rooted hardwoods like Oaks. The pines on my place have a very deep tap root and they don't move really easy.

That manager is inserting an extra variable in this situation. I would look carefully to see if I could safely remove the roof structure of the manager. That manger is either going to collapse or turn into a fulcrum which gives that tree more room to move around...

Later,
Dan

 

[Xfaxman]

If we were closer together, I would bring the Versahandler over and pick it up!


These are only about 35 feet long, but the lift goes 17 feet high, so I could at least hold it while you went on the other side of the fence, and cut the top off.

 

[joshuabardwell]

I put an ad up on Craigslist looking for quotes to get it put on the ground. I figure it can't hurt to ask, and it's worth some amount of money to let somebody else risk his neck doing the work. The irony that I just posted this thread to TBN a few days ago is not lost on me.

I've got one response so far. The guy says he has a Cat 248 skid steer and will just come lift the tree up off the manger and cut it up for me. I looked up the specs on the Cat, and it shows a rated capacity of about 900 kg = about 2000 lbs. It weighs about 3000 lbs. Frankly, that doesn't seem too far off from my tractor. I considered using my tractor to do the same thing, but I assumed the tree probably weighed too much for my loader to handle (about 1500 lbs lift capacity).

I sat down and did some crunching on what the tree might weigh. White pine is about 30 lbs / cubic foot. Let's say the tree is at most 1.5' in diameter at the base and 40' tall. That's 70 cubic feet if it doesn't taper at all, or about 2100 lbs. That number is only a ballpark, because it doesn't take into account the crown, nor the taper of the trunk. On the other hand, the tree is probably taller than 40'. So say the tree is 4000 lbs at most? Does that sound reasonable?

Regardless of the weight, I don't think I'll be using my tractor to lift it. I don't have a FOPS to protect me if something comes down, and I doubt I would want to put my precious tractor and my own safety in that much risk. Still, I'd like to have a reasonable expectation if the punters are actually going to be able to do what they say they can.

 

[MoKelly]

I think I am worth a little more than a shed or a fence. Although my wife may disagree.

My wife has a sign in the dining room that says --- "Missing. Husband, shotgun and dog. Reward for dog."

MoKelly

 

[Deere Dude]

I am a cable type of guy. As long as the tree is close to the edge of the manger, I would hook a cable about 20' from the root-ball on the tree and start pulling the tree sideways with a come-a-long or two. You would be surprised how far they bend before they would drop. That should be past your manger.

I had a 70' tree fall onto another 70' tree over the top of a 32x45 pole building, about 10' from the gable end. I pulled and pulled and pulled enough to where it fell just past the corner. It was a gamble, but all it cost was $100 for a couple pieces of cable. And yes, I was nervous.

That would work unless your picture is deceiving me.

 

[joshuabardwell]

I am a cable type of guy. As long as the tree is close to the edge of the manger, I would hook a cable about 20' from the root-ball on the tree and start pulling the tree sideways with a come-a-long or two. You would be surprised how far they bend before they would drop. That should be past your manger.

Okay, so funny you should say that, but I had the same thought as I was brainstorming this morning. When I looked at the photo again, I became a little skeptical that I would be able to move the tree far enough, but now I'm thinking that direction again. I have some 10k rated 2" nylon tie-down straps, and I had the idea to wrap one around the tree and attach the other to the drawbar on my tractor and see if I could pull the tree past the edge of the manger before it dropped.

One concern that I had was, if I pull the tree and it doesn't fall, now it is under some crazy tension, and if I go to cutting on it, that tension is going to release in a potentially unpredictable way. But I guess I could always just back up the tractor and let the tension off if things didn't go smoothly.

 

[Deere Dude]

Okay, so funny you should say that, but I had the same thought as I was brainstorming this morning. When I looked at the photo again, I became a little skeptical that I would be able to move the tree far enough, but now I'm thinking that direction again. I have some 10k rated 2" nylon tie-down straps, and I had the idea to wrap one around the tree and attach the other to the drawbar on my tractor and see if I could pull the tree past the edge of the manger before it dropped.

One concern that I had was, if I pull the tree and it doesn't fall, now it is under some crazy tension, and if I go to cutting on it, that tension is going to release in a potentially unpredictable way. But I guess I could always just back up the tractor and let the tension off if things didn't go smoothly.

I should add that I had 2 comealongs. I would tighten one up until I couldn't anymore, then I would do the other one. I went back and forth and re-tightening them up. I never let it relax one I started. I think I even was pulling with a truck also if I remember correctly.

 

[dmccarty]

I have used a come along to move a down tree out of another tree. It can work if the two are not tightly connected. If the top of the pine is not in the fork of another tree, I would think you could move the tree with a come along. I like the come along because I can go slowly and see what is happening. With a tractor things move a big quicker and I would rather take my time on something like this.

I used cable and chains to pull down the tree not a tow strap. I did have to use a tow strap on a large limb I had to cut off a dead tree though. I would rather use cables and chain but you gotta do, what you gotta do, with what ya got. :laughing::laughing::laughing:

Later,
Dan

 

[Xfaxman]

I put an ad up on Craigslist looking for quotes to get it put on the ground. I figure it can't hurt to ask, and it's worth some amount of money to let somebody else risk his neck doing the work. The irony that I just posted this thread to TBN a few days ago is not lost on me.

I've got one response so far. The guy says he has a Cat 248 skid steer and will just come lift the tree up off the manger and cut it up for me. I looked up the specs on the Cat, and it shows a rated capacity of about 900 kg = about 2000 lbs. It weighs about 3000 lbs. Frankly, that doesn't seem too far off from my tractor. I considered using my tractor to do the same thing, but I assumed the tree probably weighed too much for my loader to handle (about 1500 lbs lift capacity).

I sat down and did some crunching on what the tree might weigh. White pine is about 30 lbs / cubic foot. Let's say the tree is at most 1.5' in diameter at the base and 40' tall. That's 70 cubic feet if it doesn't taper at all, or about 2100 lbs. That number is only a ballpark, because it doesn't take into account the crown, nor the taper of the trunk. On the other hand, the tree is probably taller than 40'. So say the tree is 4000 lbs at most? Does that sound reasonable?

Regardless of the weight, I don't think I'll be using my tractor to lift it. I don't have a FOPS to protect me if something comes down, and I doubt I would want to put my precious tractor and my own safety in that much risk. Still, I'd like to have a reasonable expectation if the punters are actually going to be able to do what they say they can.

The skid steer ROC is about half of the Tipping Load of 4000 lbs., I don't think tractors are rated that way.
So he might could do it.

My V417 is rated at 4400 lbs. to 17' with the boom raised, then fully extended, but fully retracted, it will lift over 5000 lbs. I wouldn't want to raise and extend over 5000 lbs., because the wind might blow me over!

 

[Pilot]

First, FWIW, that tree doesn't have much taper. I would guess it is at least twice as tall as what we can see in the pic.

Do you have enough cedar or whatever to stack in front of the manger? I would prop up the tree in front of the manger and then cut the tree behind the manger If I could do it safely--such as with a pole pruner, standing on secure footing, such as the back of a pickup if not on the ground.

Cut the stump, then using the tractor loader lift and move the end that is over the manger, being careful that the log might roll off onto the manger or back onto the tractor. I would chain it to the loader to prevent that.

I wish you had included pics of the top end where it is stuck in the other tree. Good thing that tree was there or you would be rebuilding the manger. Of course, then you would have fewer problems!

 

[joshuabardwell]

Well, folks, the job is done. I have a couple of "action" videos that I'll post once I get them off my girlfriend's phone. In the meanwhile, here's what I did.

First, take off all the fence rails and pull the post. Next, tie a ratchet strap off to the tree, above the manger. Attach that to the tractor's drawbar and pull. This part worked smooth as butter. The tree easily pulled away from the manger and settled about four feet lower. The manger was now completely out of danger.

Next was the job of putting it the rest of the way on the ground. This part was pretty harrowing, although it turned out to be completely uneventful. First, I severed the trunk at the base. Much thanks to the person who suggested cutting from the top--you were exactly right. As the cut was nearly complete, I slowed down and carefully watched the trunk for any sign of movement, to try to predict which way it was going to go. Once I finally completed the cut, it settled in pretty uneventfully. I then made a few more cuts, laying sections of trunk on the ground. Finally, I was up to the top. I tried grabbing the top with a chain and just pulling it out of the trees whole, but my tractor didn't have enough traction, so I cut it into a few sections and pulled them out. Fortunately, the lot next to mine is a big empty hill that my neighbor, who runs a landscaping service, keeps a big brush pile on. I didn't think he'd mind if I tossed the top of this tree up there.

As of now, the job is done. The fence is back up. All that I have to do is repair the roofing on the manger, which is pretty much entirely cosmetic damage.

The real victory of the day, however, was when my girlfriend said, "This job really goes in the 'plus' column for the tractor. We're saving at least $200 right now!"

 

[joshuabardwell]

... and one more thing: THANK YOU EVERY ONE for your advice. Even those whose advice I ended up not taking was essential in the brainstorming process that finally led to the solution that I did use.

 

[aczlan]

Awesome. Glad to hear that it was removed safely.

Aaron Z

 

[joshuabardwell]

Oh, and one more thing: to the person who said I had missed a dead tree. There were fresh green needles on the tree top, so I didn't think it was dead. Am I wrong about that? This area is part of the watershed for a hilltop. So the ground here is regularly pretty soaked when we get a few days of rain. We have taken out two trees whose root-ball we noticed pulling out of the ground. This one, we just missed. In none of the cases so far did the tree appear to be dead. I think the ground is just really soft, and when a wind storm comes through, some of the trees can't handle it.

 

[JimRB]

All those dead branches low made it look like a dead tree to me. Yes a 100 foot tall live pine tree might have all the live branches way up high.

Good job safely getting it down.