Troubleshooting My Propane Fired Radiant Heating System

[sailfast]

Hey Everybody,

The boiler situation is fixed, and the radiant system is operating just fine. After exhausting everything I learned from the manual, I called the factory (US Boiler Company) in Pennsylvania. I spoke with Ron in the Tech Support Dept and he was terrific, patient, and very knowledgeable.

I really studied the system, boiler, circulating pumps, and all of the plumbing and wiring. The one situation I could not remedy is getting the pumps to run when they are commanded, not when something else initiated it.

I started when there was zero demand for heat and domestic hot water. I ran DHW to initiate a call for that. The boiler and control panel responded by starting the boiler, the boiler pump, the DHW pump, and the System pump. I wanted the DHW pump and boiler pump to run, but not the system pump. I would do this repeatedly, and make changes to the system parameters with the boiler controller. At every evolution, the system pump kept running, which sent hot water through the main loop up to the manifolds. The pumps on the manifolds did not run until thermostats called for heat.

The zone 4 light went on, telling me that DHW was active, and the priority switch was enabled. The boiler control display showed Central Heat was active, and made no mention of DHW. I sat there, keeping logs, checking pumps and temps and could not figure it out. On a subsequent try, I noticed the temps at the manifolds were 120 degrees as I set them. Then the zone 4 light would go out, and the boiler would shut off. Humph. Did it again, and finally realized it was one hour from start to shut down. Did it again to prove it and yes it shut off after one hour. I knew about the one hour priority wait time for Central Heat to wait for DHW. I could not correlate that to my situation though, because I tried every single combination on the boiler controller.

Next morning I called the factory, and Ron found the problem in the first 4 minutes. My plumber used a TACO switching relay 504. It controls the t-stats for central heat, but it would not work for the DHW, despite the priority switch on zone 4, where the DHW was connected. Ron told me to remove the DHW t-stat from the TACO switching relay, and connect it to the boiler terminal strip on the boiler. Same with the pump for DHW.

I did that, and it works fine now. Not only that, but the pump settings in the boiler software now actually work on the choices I was selecting this whole ordeal. Priority for DHW is chosen by the boiler software, not a switch on the switching relay. The boiler factory wiring is really mostly done for the installer, if the installer knows how to read a diagram.

I set DHW to 170, and central heat to 140, with the mixing valves at 120. In weather similar to this, the boiler would run 7 to 11 hours after the sun went down. Last night it ran one hour about 4am today. It will get cold later this week so we'll know how it performs.

I know, this is long, too windy. Thanks to all of you who responded and supported my cause. I do appreciate it.

Glad you got it figured out. ..
Now how much time did you waste and energy did you waste? Penny wise and pound foolish.
If you had a trained professional instead of a plumber install it would have been right to start with....
AND if you had called a trained professional to begin with to fix the problem you would have saved yourself a huge amount of time and money.
So, how much did this really save you?

 

[Pixguy]

Glad you got it figured out. .. Now how much time did you waste and energy did you waste? Penny wise and pound foolish. If you had a trained professional instead of a plumber install it would have been right to start with.... AND if you had called a trained professional to begin with to fix the problem you would have saved yourself a huge amount of time and money. So, how much did this really save you?

What you're discounting is all the knowledge he has gained and will retain for future needs by doing it himself.

btw, I was taught to keep quiet before I criticize others....... but hey that's me.

 

[sailfast]

What you're discounting is all the knowledge he has gained and will retain for future needs by doing it himself.

btw, I was taught to keep quiet before I criticize others....... but hey that's me.

Maybe, but he will likely never need to work on that same problem again.
I get diy, that is what we are here for right.
But he spent $1500 + in resources to fix a $150 problem. Bet his electric bill alone for the month it took to fix is more than the service call would have cost.

 

[teejk]

What you're discounting is all the knowledge he has gained and will retain for future needs by doing it himself.

btw, I was taught to keep quiet before I criticize others....... but hey that's me.

And some of us simply like to know how stuff works and would not consider this to be a waste of time! Even if in the future he decides to "call the guy" he'll be in a better position to know if that guy knows what he is doing. I would suggest that he finds one of the "annual service" kits and have it on hand. Unless a service guy has a number of the same units it is doubtful he will have the parts on hand and having to wait for parts is bad.

 

[dadster4]

Glad you got it figured out. ..
Now how much time did you waste and energy did you waste? Penny wise and pound foolish.
If you had a trained professional instead of a plumber install it would have been right to start with....
AND if you had called a trained professional to begin with to fix the problem you would have saved yourself a huge amount of time and money.
So, how much did this really save you?

I AM a trained professional...I love customers like you who call before trying to fix anything...I've billed people over $350 as a MINIMUM service call charge, only to flip a power switch that the customer's cat hit while jumping into it's litter box next to a boiler. Much can be learned by fixing or tweaking a system when problems arise, Hillstreet may have eliminated paying for future service work, now that he is more familiar with how the system works.
When I reply to another member's problem, I offer advice to help in any way I can, based on my knowledge of the subject and the information given by that member. Negative comments and posts with no hint of quality information are a waste of everyone's time.

 

[teejk]

I AM a trained professional...I love customers like you who call before trying to fix anything...I've billed people over $350 as a MINIMUM service call charge, only to flip a power switch that the customer's cat hit while jumping into it's litter box next to a boiler. Much can be learned by fixing or tweaking a system when problems arise, Hillstreet may have eliminated paying for future service work, now that he is more familiar with how the system works.
When I reply to another member's problem, I offer advice to help in any way I can, based on my knowledge of the subject and the information given by that member. Negative comments and posts with no hint of quality information are a waste of everyone's time.

You stated my position quite well. But I find that in any discussion where a trade is involved I find people trying to steer people away from DYI (most noticeable with the electrical trade). Btw, I'll repeat that anybody with a newer boiler should keep a service kit on hand. Most likely the only emergency parts required will be the ignitor and gasket but by the time you buy that you will have paid for the entire kit (on the Weil all the other gaskets required to open up and clean the heat exchanger plus the test kits to ensure your water pH plus another copy of the 100 page service manual). I found mine on-line and they didn't break the bank.

 

[HillStreet]

Glad you got it figured out. ..
Now how much time did you waste and energy did you waste? Penny wise and pound foolish.
If you had a trained professional instead of a plumber install it would have been right to start with....
AND if you had called a trained professional to begin with to fix the problem you would have saved yourself a huge amount of time and money.
So, how much did this really save you?

sailfast,

The only reason that I had this issue (or experience) was that I met my neighbor just before breaking ground on the house, I learned that he was a Master Plumber, and decided to be a good neighbor and asked him for a quote for plumbing and heating. He did provide the written quote, we discussed it and terms, and even though he was a little high, I did ask him to do the job. Not a leap of faith. I have built 4 houses from scratch, buying all materials and hiring contractors. I would live in them from 6 years to 11 years. All good houses, all still looking good, friends with all the people that bought a house from me. So, quit busting my balls.

I did not waste huge resources. I am retired, and it is winter in Maine. I am happy to have had this experience. I hope I did not leave the impression that this took all my time, I am not a mad scientist, I just thought that I was going to figure out why the **** thing was running what seemed to be a lot of hours.

I built a work bench, played with my 3 year old grandson, flew my airplane, hung around the airport, traveled to Florida and Connecticut, pruned apple trees, read books---you know, fairly normal stuff.

Long and short of it is: the boiler burned excess propane for 9 months before I even knew there was a problem. Then I found the thermostat thing and thought it was fixed. Then I discovered the pump think which did have me puzzled. Someone may have walked in and pointed to that, changed it, and said goodbye. And I would have been happy about that, but now I am maybe just a little bit happier than that because I figured it out. I did not build 4 houses without learning something along the way, and I did this while working full time on the road. Oh well, enough of that. All is cool here and I will say it again: thanks for the suggestions and comments, it all helped. And even with my crude attempts to explain things in words without photos, you all seemed to get the visual picture I was trying to paint and responded. Best to you all.

 

[HillStreet]

Maybe, but he will likely never need to work on that same problem again.
I get diy, that is what we are here for right.
But he spent $1500 + in resources to fix a $150 problem. Bet his electric bill alone for the month it took to fix is more than the service call would have cost.

Way overstated, no way did I spend that kind of money. My electric bill? The house has gas stove, dryer, boiler. Electric bill is under $60.

 

[HillStreet]

And some of us simply like to know how stuff works and would not consider this to be a waste of time! Even if in the future he decides to "call the guy" he'll be in a better position to know if that guy knows what he is doing. I would suggest that he finds one of the "annual service" kits and have it on hand. Unless a service guy has a number of the same units it is doubtful he will have the parts on hand and having to wait for parts is bad.

That's a good idea, I have spare parts all over the place for power equipment, never thought of the boiler. I think most people would agree.

 

[hawkeye08]

Hillstreet, glad you stuck with it and figured it out. Calling the factory is part of the experience when something is not working according to specs. thanks for sharing the experience.