I'm not so certain I'd agree that the large tractors don't use more sophisticated engineering. They are well made and employ state of the art technology. They don't offer as many options as the more well known names, but I suppose in time that will change.
Used Farm Pro 2420 for the first time...questions
- Thread starter joerocker
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JohnS
Platinum Member
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( As I've said before.. .. if you guys are gona play the 'only owner's comments are prefered' card.. you really should have the forum restricted to owners only.. that way you won't be bothered by questions from potential buyers.. or comments from the gallery.
I'd have to say that antique tractors, when viewed / reviewed as 'viable' alternatives for a working tractor.. take much more of a verbal beating than the chinese tractors.. yet.. we antique owners don't whip out many 'crusades' to protectt he honr of our old iron.. we merely point out the factual capabilities of it.. and then move on...however it is well known, especially from viewing the archives, here, that many tirades can be traced back to certain other tractor species...
)</font>
Soundguy,
Are there any chinese tractor owners that hang out in the antique tractor forum, for years, who have been saying they have been considering buying one, but seem to relish on focusing on the negatives? Are there other newer tractor owners that hang out there and do that, over years timeframe? If so, how are they percieved? As an open minded future buyer or someone that just whats to stir the pot and "create" discussion? You bring allot of technical know-how to the board, and many times there seems to be "old time" solutions for antique tractors, that may apply to the chinese, but can see where others could easily judge it toward the "stir the pot".
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( .. we merely point out the factual capabilities of it )</font>
I believe that is were this post started, but suddenly became a "major" design problem.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( ( I sure hope I read that wrong, as Ford had this back in 1939 )
)</font> /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
Anyway, from the side discussion, I received a good education on the history of Ford tractors and their 3pt capabilities. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
I'd have to say that antique tractors, when viewed / reviewed as 'viable' alternatives for a working tractor.. take much more of a verbal beating than the chinese tractors.. yet.. we antique owners don't whip out many 'crusades' to protectt he honr of our old iron.. we merely point out the factual capabilities of it.. and then move on...however it is well known, especially from viewing the archives, here, that many tirades can be traced back to certain other tractor species...
)</font>
Soundguy,
Are there any chinese tractor owners that hang out in the antique tractor forum, for years, who have been saying they have been considering buying one, but seem to relish on focusing on the negatives? Are there other newer tractor owners that hang out there and do that, over years timeframe? If so, how are they percieved? As an open minded future buyer or someone that just whats to stir the pot and "create" discussion? You bring allot of technical know-how to the board, and many times there seems to be "old time" solutions for antique tractors, that may apply to the chinese, but can see where others could easily judge it toward the "stir the pot".
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( .. we merely point out the factual capabilities of it )</font>
I believe that is were this post started, but suddenly became a "major" design problem.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( ( I sure hope I read that wrong, as Ford had this back in 1939 )
)</font> /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
Anyway, from the side discussion, I received a good education on the history of Ford tractors and their 3pt capabilities. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Soundguy
Old Timer
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2002
- Messages
- 51,575
- Location
- Central florida
- Tractor
- RK 55HC,ym1700, NH7610S, Ford 8N, 2N, NAA, 660, 850 x2, 541, 950, 941D, 951, 2000, 3000, 4000, 4600, 5000, 740, IH 'C' 'H', CUB, John Deere 'B', allis 'G', case VAC
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Are there any chinese tractor owners that hang out in the antique tractor forum )</font>
I wish.. I wish anyone hung out there. That forum gets about 3 posts a week or less.. used to be even slower. I think that's due to the makeup on this board.. it's really geared more towards 'newer' tractors. I do however read many other tractor boards that have a better mix of tractor ages, and makes ( country of origin ), as well as other sites that cater more to older tractors.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( who have been saying they have been considering buying one, but seem to relish on focusing on the negatives? )</font>
Don't know if they are chinese tractor owners.. but LOTS of people hang out at many of the old tractor sites I visit.. and very many are hesitant about plunking down 1-2-3+ thousand dollars for some cast iron that is older than their parents.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( open minded future buyer or someone that just whats to stir the pot and "create" discussion? )</font>
That's what I can't figure out. Around here.. seems people don't want 'discussion' if it isn't rose tinted, sweet smelling, and covered in cherries and whipped cream. I like the good "cards on the table" discussions that pop up here. As for future buyers? I think it is helpfull that potential buyers can read about all the aspects of tractor ownership.. especially the downsides. After all.. the 'good' times are by definition .. 'good'.. no argument there.. doesn't matter where your tractor comes from.. if it is pleasing you.. times are good.. It's the 'bad' times that people need to be prepaired for. Tons of good advice here, provided by the hands on types.. that is especially good for those that may be new owners, or prospective owners that are not 'mechanics'.. but can read a cook book and turn a wrench.. if the info is in the archive.
Shouldn't be any dark secrets here.. No one should be ashamed to post any info about their tractor.. after all.. who wants a surprise AFTER purchase.. that's why open discussion is good. Even if it is the flashlight and 'poker' type inspections into the seldom investigated topics.
For instance.. this very topic about the hyds control. I had no idea ( the specific unit ) worked that way.. that is.. external linkage adjusted stops.. etc. I ****-umed it worked like 90% of the other tractors out there.. with internal position ( or draft ) linkage control. ( as opposed to the various other designs in use. by people like kubota.. etc.. )..
I think that's good info to get out...Type of hyd system makes a difference to me.. might not for the average user who cuts grass with their tractor.. but from a repair point of view.. I'd like to know what's on the inside if there is ever a chance I'm going int here to fix it if it overextends cause a nut got loose.. or was adjusted wrong.. etc. that's -important- data.
As for my critical opinion on the specifics of the design? Oh well.. it's america.. and we all are entitled to an opinion.. I think it's an underdesigned system for 2005... I wouldn't "prefer" it, in the same way that I would not "prefer" the 9n/2n draft only hyds vs the position control & draft selectable hyds of an 8n.
I'd also like to point out.. simple age of a design doesn't specifically make it 'better' either. For instance.. in late 52, almost entirely due to the ferguson lawsuit, ford changed the valving arangement ont he 3pt to work with the new external pump. Instead of using an input control valve.. they went to an unloading style valve. That perpetuated on up thru hundred and above year models. I personally don't like that system. It's more complicated to R&R that the original input control valve.. and it has a pecularity in the regeneration circuit.. that makes the lift 'bob' a bit if the piston / cyl leaks alot. The 8n regeneration is much much smoother.. The leaking oil and the incoming oil reach a 'ballance'... the lift won't bob up and down unless there is more oil loss than the pump can regenerate, based on the load conditions and engine rpm. ( It's a scotch yoke pistom pump.. so at low rpms and high load.. there is vibration in the lift.. but not bad.... naa and hundred series went to a super smooth vane pump.. that proved to wear out superfast... back to piston pump with a wobble plate... ).. etc.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( but can see where others could easily judge it toward the "stir the pot".
)</font>
I take that is a 'thick' skin issue. I can tolerate quite a bit of tractor directed beratement.. but don't like to see personal beratement... 2 different issues. Again.. everyone is entitled to an opinion...
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( ( .. we merely point out the factual capabilities of it )
I believe that is were this post started, but suddenly became a "major" design problem.
)</font>
Not problem.. just ..I feel it is an underdesigned system.. seems to be a 'just enough' type design. Which.. for all intents and purposes.. 'does' work. There is something to be said about 'does' work systems. I've seen many a tractor without OEM hyds that have add on 3pt lifts... One of my favorites was an IH cub.. had a small cat 0 welde dup lift made of odds n ends.. and had a bottle jack as the power source.. with handle pointed convieniently forward for the owner to manually 'pump' up the load... System DID work.. as it was an add on.. I didn't think it was too 'hokey'. Had it come like that from the factory I think I'd have frowned though. Same with a BF avery I saw at a show. had been repowerd log ago with a lawnmower engine and a belt coupling ( probably an increase in hp from original engine /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif )... had a 49$ (chinese!! ) electric winch mounted on the back, run thru a couple pullies to operate a very rickety cobbled up 3pt lift. Rube goldberg would be very prowd of that setup!!! Again.. it has plenty of 'neat and inventive' factor as it is an add on to a 60 year old tractor.. had that been on a new design.. I'd be wondering...
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( history of Ford tractors and their 3pt capabilities.
)</font>
To go along with that... I'll add that the stock oem jinma tractor probably has a stronger lift.. The ford relief valve popped around 1000# give or take, but the nose of the tractor was off the ground at around 750# or so /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif That assumes a lift in good repair. Any internal leaks and you are lucky to get much speed or lift on 800# or even move the arms on 900# assuming you chain the front down or add alotta fornt weight... making the kingpin wear out fast.. and making it hard to steer /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
In the end.. I have a basic fascination with tractors.. ( even the rice burners /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif ).. And i love discusing them. I guess new owners don't like standing around as much kicking tires and just talking about tractors as some of us guys do.. especially those of us with old iron. Part of that kicking the tires and talking is about the bad features.. downsides.. bad experiences.. etc... And that's just as important as the good stuff. Even more important in my book.. case in point... Ford.. and their wonderful selectospeed tranny.. not so lovingly dubbed the SOS tranny.. mostly because there was a high early failur rate.. and you sent out an SOS as your tractor was broke down in the field. I wouldn't buy a tractor with an sos tranny unless it was pennies ont he dollar. most collectors i know devalue a sos trannied tractor by 25% to 50% IF it is completely functional.. and consider it a 'stationary' engine if the sos is bad. And those are the guys looking for parade queens.. not workers. I only know of 2 guys that still use an SOS tractor for working...
Lots of 'widow' maker stuff out there that many people aren't aware about either. Those downside 'downsides' DO need to be discussed.. no matter what age of tractor.. or who makes it. i realize not all 'downsides' are dangerous downsides.. many are just convienience features.. or even points of interest...like this one.. they still merit discussion.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Are there any chinese tractor owners that hang out in the antique tractor forum, for years, ..... but seem to relish on focusing on the negatives )</font>
To revisit that question one more time... I will point out that you don't find any responses to someone asking about an antique tractor, that say that they need to own one before they keep asking questions. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
I tell you what.. As a test..Hop over to the vintage forum and make a post asking about the most common percieved downsides on antique tractors.. undesireable features.
Dangerous points.. value killers.. etc.. I'll bet you get a positive lively discussion on the downsides of our tractors /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif In fact.. I'l start the thread... lets see where it goes. My guess is that is stays nice and light... /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
Soundguy
I wish.. I wish anyone hung out there. That forum gets about 3 posts a week or less.. used to be even slower. I think that's due to the makeup on this board.. it's really geared more towards 'newer' tractors. I do however read many other tractor boards that have a better mix of tractor ages, and makes ( country of origin ), as well as other sites that cater more to older tractors.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( who have been saying they have been considering buying one, but seem to relish on focusing on the negatives? )</font>
Don't know if they are chinese tractor owners.. but LOTS of people hang out at many of the old tractor sites I visit.. and very many are hesitant about plunking down 1-2-3+ thousand dollars for some cast iron that is older than their parents.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( open minded future buyer or someone that just whats to stir the pot and "create" discussion? )</font>
That's what I can't figure out. Around here.. seems people don't want 'discussion' if it isn't rose tinted, sweet smelling, and covered in cherries and whipped cream. I like the good "cards on the table" discussions that pop up here. As for future buyers? I think it is helpfull that potential buyers can read about all the aspects of tractor ownership.. especially the downsides. After all.. the 'good' times are by definition .. 'good'.. no argument there.. doesn't matter where your tractor comes from.. if it is pleasing you.. times are good.. It's the 'bad' times that people need to be prepaired for. Tons of good advice here, provided by the hands on types.. that is especially good for those that may be new owners, or prospective owners that are not 'mechanics'.. but can read a cook book and turn a wrench.. if the info is in the archive.
Shouldn't be any dark secrets here.. No one should be ashamed to post any info about their tractor.. after all.. who wants a surprise AFTER purchase.. that's why open discussion is good. Even if it is the flashlight and 'poker' type inspections into the seldom investigated topics.
For instance.. this very topic about the hyds control. I had no idea ( the specific unit ) worked that way.. that is.. external linkage adjusted stops.. etc. I ****-umed it worked like 90% of the other tractors out there.. with internal position ( or draft ) linkage control. ( as opposed to the various other designs in use. by people like kubota.. etc.. )..
I think that's good info to get out...Type of hyd system makes a difference to me.. might not for the average user who cuts grass with their tractor.. but from a repair point of view.. I'd like to know what's on the inside if there is ever a chance I'm going int here to fix it if it overextends cause a nut got loose.. or was adjusted wrong.. etc. that's -important- data.
As for my critical opinion on the specifics of the design? Oh well.. it's america.. and we all are entitled to an opinion.. I think it's an underdesigned system for 2005... I wouldn't "prefer" it, in the same way that I would not "prefer" the 9n/2n draft only hyds vs the position control & draft selectable hyds of an 8n.
I'd also like to point out.. simple age of a design doesn't specifically make it 'better' either. For instance.. in late 52, almost entirely due to the ferguson lawsuit, ford changed the valving arangement ont he 3pt to work with the new external pump. Instead of using an input control valve.. they went to an unloading style valve. That perpetuated on up thru hundred and above year models. I personally don't like that system. It's more complicated to R&R that the original input control valve.. and it has a pecularity in the regeneration circuit.. that makes the lift 'bob' a bit if the piston / cyl leaks alot. The 8n regeneration is much much smoother.. The leaking oil and the incoming oil reach a 'ballance'... the lift won't bob up and down unless there is more oil loss than the pump can regenerate, based on the load conditions and engine rpm. ( It's a scotch yoke pistom pump.. so at low rpms and high load.. there is vibration in the lift.. but not bad.... naa and hundred series went to a super smooth vane pump.. that proved to wear out superfast... back to piston pump with a wobble plate... ).. etc.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( but can see where others could easily judge it toward the "stir the pot".
)</font>
I take that is a 'thick' skin issue. I can tolerate quite a bit of tractor directed beratement.. but don't like to see personal beratement... 2 different issues. Again.. everyone is entitled to an opinion...
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( ( .. we merely point out the factual capabilities of it )
I believe that is were this post started, but suddenly became a "major" design problem.
)</font>
Not problem.. just ..I feel it is an underdesigned system.. seems to be a 'just enough' type design. Which.. for all intents and purposes.. 'does' work. There is something to be said about 'does' work systems. I've seen many a tractor without OEM hyds that have add on 3pt lifts... One of my favorites was an IH cub.. had a small cat 0 welde dup lift made of odds n ends.. and had a bottle jack as the power source.. with handle pointed convieniently forward for the owner to manually 'pump' up the load... System DID work.. as it was an add on.. I didn't think it was too 'hokey'. Had it come like that from the factory I think I'd have frowned though. Same with a BF avery I saw at a show. had been repowerd log ago with a lawnmower engine and a belt coupling ( probably an increase in hp from original engine /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif )... had a 49$ (chinese!! ) electric winch mounted on the back, run thru a couple pullies to operate a very rickety cobbled up 3pt lift. Rube goldberg would be very prowd of that setup!!! Again.. it has plenty of 'neat and inventive' factor as it is an add on to a 60 year old tractor.. had that been on a new design.. I'd be wondering...
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( history of Ford tractors and their 3pt capabilities.
)</font>
To go along with that... I'll add that the stock oem jinma tractor probably has a stronger lift.. The ford relief valve popped around 1000# give or take, but the nose of the tractor was off the ground at around 750# or so /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif That assumes a lift in good repair. Any internal leaks and you are lucky to get much speed or lift on 800# or even move the arms on 900# assuming you chain the front down or add alotta fornt weight... making the kingpin wear out fast.. and making it hard to steer /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
In the end.. I have a basic fascination with tractors.. ( even the rice burners /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif ).. And i love discusing them. I guess new owners don't like standing around as much kicking tires and just talking about tractors as some of us guys do.. especially those of us with old iron. Part of that kicking the tires and talking is about the bad features.. downsides.. bad experiences.. etc... And that's just as important as the good stuff. Even more important in my book.. case in point... Ford.. and their wonderful selectospeed tranny.. not so lovingly dubbed the SOS tranny.. mostly because there was a high early failur rate.. and you sent out an SOS as your tractor was broke down in the field. I wouldn't buy a tractor with an sos tranny unless it was pennies ont he dollar. most collectors i know devalue a sos trannied tractor by 25% to 50% IF it is completely functional.. and consider it a 'stationary' engine if the sos is bad. And those are the guys looking for parade queens.. not workers. I only know of 2 guys that still use an SOS tractor for working...
Lots of 'widow' maker stuff out there that many people aren't aware about either. Those downside 'downsides' DO need to be discussed.. no matter what age of tractor.. or who makes it. i realize not all 'downsides' are dangerous downsides.. many are just convienience features.. or even points of interest...like this one.. they still merit discussion.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Are there any chinese tractor owners that hang out in the antique tractor forum, for years, ..... but seem to relish on focusing on the negatives )</font>
To revisit that question one more time... I will point out that you don't find any responses to someone asking about an antique tractor, that say that they need to own one before they keep asking questions. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
I tell you what.. As a test..Hop over to the vintage forum and make a post asking about the most common percieved downsides on antique tractors.. undesireable features.
Dangerous points.. value killers.. etc.. I'll bet you get a positive lively discussion on the downsides of our tractors /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif In fact.. I'l start the thread... lets see where it goes. My guess is that is stays nice and light... /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
Soundguy
JINMA224XR
Gold Member
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2005
- Messages
- 464
- Location
- Alabama Gulf Coast
- Tractor
- 2004 JINMA 224XR, (1990 SHINNIU 254/sold)
<font color="blue"> I have a basic fascination with tractors.. ( even the rice burners </font>
Hey Chris,
That's a downgrading Slur and is not nice Chris.
Are you talking American Rice or Another Countries Rice.
No one likes to be referred to in a downgrading fashion or talked down to in a conversation.
Get Off of Your High Horse.
You are definitely Stirring The Pot.
Get your tractors running &
Have a nice day,
Joe /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
Hey Chris,
That's a downgrading Slur and is not nice Chris.
Are you talking American Rice or Another Countries Rice.
No one likes to be referred to in a downgrading fashion or talked down to in a conversation.
Get Off of Your High Horse.
You are definitely Stirring The Pot.
Get your tractors running &
Have a nice day,
Joe /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
ToolManRick
Silver Member
This is bringing back fond memories of when there was a little tension between the PC users and the MAC users. So sensitive and devoted to pieces of electronic gear. I love it! Both groups were, of course, correct in their views. Makes me want to run home and jump on the old tractor. Which is what I really should do and get that danged stump out of the pathway.
Tractors4u
Elite Member
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2002
- Messages
- 2,540
- Location
- Athens Alabama
- Tractor
- Deere 4310, Kubota L355, John Deere SST18 Spin Steer, 2006 Polaris Ranger
Come on Joe, lighten up. The term "Rice Rocket" has been used as a complimentary term in motorcycle circles for years to discribe Japanese super bikes. Nobody get's wound around the axle or sprocket so to speak about that. I have heard the term rice burner for years and it has meant nothing more than an Asian built vehicle. We have gotten way to sensitive here in the US. Chris has brought a lot of information to TBN over the years that he has been here. He has never said anything that would be considered offensive.
Soundguy
Old Timer
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2002
- Messages
- 51,575
- Location
- Central florida
- Tractor
- RK 55HC,ym1700, NH7610S, Ford 8N, 2N, NAA, 660, 850 x2, 541, 950, 941D, 951, 2000, 3000, 4000, 4600, 5000, 740, IH 'C' 'H', CUB, John Deere 'B', allis 'G', case VAC
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I have heard the term rice burner for years and it has meant nothing more than an Asian built vehicle. )</font>
Ditto. Besides.. I was refering to the yanmar when thinking about the 'rice' issue anyway.. as many here point out.. I don't have a chinese tractor /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
Soundguy
Ditto. Besides.. I was refering to the yanmar when thinking about the 'rice' issue anyway.. as many here point out.. I don't have a chinese tractor /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
Soundguy
Soundguy
Old Timer
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2002
- Messages
- 51,575
- Location
- Central florida
- Tractor
- RK 55HC,ym1700, NH7610S, Ford 8N, 2N, NAA, 660, 850 x2, 541, 950, 941D, 951, 2000, 3000, 4000, 4600, 5000, 740, IH 'C' 'H', CUB, John Deere 'B', allis 'G', case VAC
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( That's a downgrading Slur and is not nice Chris.
)</font>
With the appropriate smiley's attached.. i think you well know the light manner in which I meant that.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( No one likes to be referred to in a downgrading fashion or talked down to in a conversation.
Get Off of Your High Horse.
)</font>
Um... /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif that would be you,.. from the looks of the quote...
Soundguy
)</font>
With the appropriate smiley's attached.. i think you well know the light manner in which I meant that.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( No one likes to be referred to in a downgrading fashion or talked down to in a conversation.
Get Off of Your High Horse.
)</font>
Um... /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif that would be you,.. from the looks of the quote...
Soundguy
JINMA224XR
Gold Member
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2005
- Messages
- 464
- Location
- Alabama Gulf Coast
- Tractor
- 2004 JINMA 224XR, (1990 SHINNIU 254/sold)
<font color="blue"> The term "Rice Rocket" has been used as a complimentary term in motorcycle circles for years to discribe Japanese super bikes. I have heard the term rice burner for years and it has meant nothing more than an Asian built vehicle. </font>
Hey Brent,
The term "Rice Rocket", is used to describe a very fast Cafe Type Motorcycle in which the rider has his legs behind him in a croutched postion. And can be taken in a complimentary fashion. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
The term "Rice Burner", is a downGrading term that was started mainly by American Motorcycle Riders, to refer in Particular to a Japanese Made Motorcycle, and is meant to refer to a lesser quality made machine, in a derogatory manner.
Somebody correct me if I am wrong, but since I have been riding a motorbike for about 40 years, I believe that I am pretty much correct.
Get your tractors running &
Have a nice day,
Joe /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
Hey Brent,
The term "Rice Rocket", is used to describe a very fast Cafe Type Motorcycle in which the rider has his legs behind him in a croutched postion. And can be taken in a complimentary fashion. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
The term "Rice Burner", is a downGrading term that was started mainly by American Motorcycle Riders, to refer in Particular to a Japanese Made Motorcycle, and is meant to refer to a lesser quality made machine, in a derogatory manner.
Somebody correct me if I am wrong, but since I have been riding a motorbike for about 40 years, I believe that I am pretty much correct.
Get your tractors running &
Have a nice day,
Joe /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
