Used Value vs Age

   / Used Value vs Age #101  

CoyPatton

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2015
Messages
1,450
Location
Poplar Bluff, MO
Tractor
Yanmar YM2002D with Koyker 110 FEL
You should never let the irresponsibility of your neighbor keep you from doing what’s right. The United States is a leader, not a follower, and the best leader is one who leads by example.
This I believe was true in the past. Currently if still a leader (questionable) it will not be for long!
You can not promote ‘new’ tech as being environmentally friendly, when the truth is you trade one evil for a different evil!
Please educate yourself about the friendliness of lithium mining! These groups are freely willing to make the world’s supply of water unusable for drinking, for irrigation or any other use. So instead of killing us with lung diseases, they will dehydrate us to death as well as kill off all life—plant and animal—everything living needs water. Educated yourself!
 
   / Used Value vs Age #102  

PuffyC

Platinum Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2020
Messages
622
Location
Oklahoma
Tractor
Deere 3032e
Im amazed by people getting better fuel economy on their older vehicles than new ones. My first new pickup was a 1973 F250, good for 9 mpg on Interstate averaging 70 mph. Today my 2015 F150 will carry more, tow more, an when loaded the same way will be 21 mpg averaging the same speed.
I'm sure you could find a few special cases where a specific older truck got marginally better mileage than another specific newer one, but generally speaking fuel economy for trucks has almost doubled since the mid-70s:

TruckCap - Copy.jpg



 
   / Used Value vs Age #103  

plumbyII

New member
Joined
Mar 21, 2020
Messages
19
Tractor
New Holland TN80F
I know where this conversation will lead so I will be the one to go down the rabbit hole.

Some government regulations are a necessary evel. That said, it always feels like they went too far when it effects usability of something YOU want. Sometimes technology will catch up to the requirements and you end up with a better machine because of it. Look at how reliable cars have become and how well they run compared to the early days of emission controls. Not sure if this will be the case for diesel emissions. Time will tell.

I am about to buy a good used washer and dryer. New washing machines were regulated to a max of 26 gallons of water and it doesn't cover the load. Reviews on new ones are all over the place but quite a few complain of clothes not getting clean. Complaints are such that Home Depot lists all new washers and dryers as NON-RETURNABLE. Apparently you can spring for a commercial unit that escapes the regulation at near double the price of a consumer model. BUT they don't sell them in any of the normal consumer stores.

I want a mid size cab tractor one of these days. I will probably have to pay near new price to get a pre emission model or suck it up and buy a new one with lots of electronics and pauses in use while it regenerates. Not in my budget either way right now so I will cross that road when I get to it. Finding a good pre emission model is becoming more and more impossible. People are not selling them and if they do they fetch a premium price.
Take it from a guy who has both tractor stuff and rental buildings. Buy an old analog control coinop speedqueen if you want reliability, serviceability and clean clothes in a washing machine. (If in doubt about age and model look for a machine with a real agitator - the epa seems to have outlawed such devices).
 
   / Used Value vs Age #104  

redneck1952

New member
Joined
Apr 13, 2020
Messages
22
Tractor
several
If you have a tractor that has the computer on it when using it and it shuts down. Unless it something simple you are at the mercy of a technician getting there to fix it (and that could be a week or more) and hope he has parts to do it. With no computer most people (farmers and ranchers) can find a way to get it running again unless he blows up the engine or transmission and put it back to work. A down tractor could mean loss of a crop. They can’t afford down time. Mine is pre computer and when I purchased it that’s what I wanted.
 
   / Used Value vs Age #105  

PuffyC

Platinum Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2020
Messages
622
Location
Oklahoma
Tractor
Deere 3032e
You can not promote ‘new’ tech as being environmentally friendly, when the truth is you trade one evil for a different evil!
Please educate yourself about the friendliness of lithium mining! These groups are freely willing to make the world’s supply of water unusable for drinking, for irrigation or any other use. So instead of killing us with lung diseases, they will dehydrate us to death as well as kill off all life—plant and animal—everything living needs water. Educated yourself!
I don't think anyone ever claimed mining lithium was "environmentally friendly", whatever that even means. However, while there are plenty of things to be concerned about regarding lithium mining, the net impact is still far better than the alternative. Part of the confusion is that people think 'green' means no pollution at all when in practice it really just means better, and we should always try to be better. Luckily for us, researchers are working to find better battery solutions every day.

Today, the idea that lithium mining is bad therefore we shouldn't pursue it is actually a great example of the rational fallacy appropriately named "Searching for a Perfect Solution" which is just the belief that if a solution isn't perfect it shouldn't be tried. It's one of those common fallacies where once you're aware of it you see it used all the time.
 
   / Used Value vs Age #106  

RichNJKubota

Gold Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2003
Messages
419
Location
Hunterdon County, NJ
Tractor
Kubota L4310HST
Correct if I'm wrong on this....
One of the global warming problems is CO2 and that comes out of all internal combustion engines. I don't think there are any emissions equipment to alter the CO2 coming out the tailpipe. The amount of CO2 coming out of the tailpipe is directly related to the amount of fuel being burned.
The regeneration cycle uses more fuel to burn off the soot in DPF.
So these new diesel engines use more fuel (and there for produce more CO2) than the prior dirty engines.
The DPF protects your lungs from small particulates coming out the exhaust
And the NOx cat (if you have one) reduces smog producing nitrous oxides.

Comments? or corrections?
 
   / Used Value vs Age #107  

espacef1fan

Silver Member
Joined
Feb 28, 2019
Messages
202
Tractor
Shopping for a tractor
Correct if I'm wrong on this....
One of the global warming problems is CO2 and that comes out of all internal combustion engines. I don't think there are any emissions equipment to alter the CO2 coming out the tailpipe. The amount of CO2 coming out of the tailpipe is directly related to the amount of fuel being burned.
The regeneration cycle uses more fuel to burn off the soot in DPF.
So these new diesel engines use more fuel (and there for produce more CO2) than the prior dirty engines.
The DPF protects your lungs from small particulates coming out the exhaust
And the NOx cat (if you have one) reduces smog producing nitrous oxides.

Comments? or corrections?

Exactly. Clean air is good.

These devices are meant to catch diesels up to the cleanliness of gas engines.

I really don’t understand the frothing at the mouth arguments about global warming whether making the case for or against this equipment.
 
   / Used Value vs Age #108  

alexpops

Silver Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2017
Messages
246
Location
NSB, FL
Tractor
LS XR4150, CAT 303.5CR, Kubota ZD331
If the reliability of all the environmental crap was so good, there would be no need to exempt the US military from having to comply. But, since it would be bad press for the politicians to have to admit that your son died because when his tank went into limp mode due to (a. a failed exhaust injector in the DPF system, b. bad NOX sensor, c. bad calibration of MAF sensor indicated EGR malfunction, etc. -- Take your pick) it made it easy for an enemy insurgent to climb on the vehicle and burn him out with a quart of gasoline. The fact that the same issues cost you your ability to make a living is pooh poohed as a minor inconvenience for the greater good, despite the fact that your taxes aren't reduced as compensation for being a beta tester of their poorly thought out regulations, nor does the government compensate you for the lost time due to parts unavailability and no ability to bypass the the systems -- even in an emergency. Sorry keep your kool-aid. I guess the heat during the jurassic & cretaceous periods were due to excess dinosaur farts that weren't fixed by catalytic converters & exhaust restrictors in their asses. We may or may not be getting global warming. If we are, MAN has nothing to do with it, we are simply returning to a more normal temperature (from a geologic perspective). Say good bye to the Tail end of the ice age and welcome the new era. Alternatively ... if you lean that way, welcome the terraforming event that is being perpetrated on this planet by the aliens in Antarctica (where all the ozone depletion started) & get ready for the herd culling that they are about to start. I have no problem with clean water & clean air, but for the short time that humans have been the dominant species on land, we are still insignificant actors in the grand scheme, and I refuse to buy into the popular propaganda that we alone are responsible & that our actions will somehow stop the inevitable. Neanderthals & Cro-magnons were probably having this same argument when they noticed the temps dropping & winters lasting longer
 
   / Used Value vs Age #109  

ljjhouser

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2018
Messages
1,075
Location
Midwest
Tractor
Kubota L4701
I have tier 4 on my 2017 tractor. I don't mind the little extra fuel when it burns particulate. But is does make the tractor cost a little more. But it doesn't seem to make a lot of difference if you run the tractor hot at high power levels like the dealer says is better for the engine. I also think tier 4 may not have a lot of impact on sales because the dealer usually doesn't usually even mention it to the buyer. There have been 2 times that I have been asked "What is that button?" (that was referring to their new tractor.) The tier 4 delay button. Some of us seem to have strong feelings about tier 4. I guess if I priced a 2020 tractor with 200 hours 28k, and a 2016 tractor with 200 hours for 27-28k, I probably would go 2020. I sure would not pay more for the older tractor over the newer because of tier 4.
 
   / Used Value vs Age #110  

DieselBound

Elite Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2016
Messages
3,311
Location
Arlington, WA
Tractor
Kubota B7800; Kioti NX5510HC
As Lab Guy noted, we're externalizing a lot of the real costs. In order to understand the FULL costs (environment- bean-counting is always done using cups [and the "shareholders" will be sure to hide stuff in order to ensure they get a larger chunk out of the worker's toils]) you have to start from the very ground up. How much energy went into all those man-hours to design and build those emissions systems/components [be sure to include housing and travel costs!]? How much cost is there in replacement parts (have to have an idea of replacement interval- <- this is perhaps the core of this discussion [if things lasted "forever" then there really wouldn't be a concern])? DEF containers and on and on. Many people will latch on to these things to flog folks who may be supportive of emissions "solutions." There's something to this, but then again we cannot KNOW for certain unless there's a full accounting. And anyone who is being honest will accept that we have allowed ourselves to self-deceive by externalizing costs: lots in the form of environmental costs- look up Steve Donzinger for a story concerning things of this nature; CoyPatton noted this same kind of issue (one that I KNOW of and speak of when possible); note that these two are energy-related issues- this should trigger a bit of deeper thing in people about what is really going on.

Newer engines ARE more efficient, but not because of the emissions stuff. They're more efficient because of better materials and better manufacturing, both allow achieving better tolerances. Add in computer controls and things are a lot more efficient. Emissions "mandates" have given an extra push towards increased efficiency because cleaner burns mean getting more power from input energy (we're talking ICEs and diesel/gasoline here).

We won't be able to save the planet by having everyone driving EVs or operating newer tractors (in another thread I voiced by opinion as to what I think is the probability of seeing EV CUTs [spoiler alert: pretty much NILL]). We can't use "efficiency" to "save" us. The reason can be found via Jevons Paradox: briefly stated as "efficiency" meaning an improved rate of depletion of natural resources. All living things on the planet have an observable check on their populations; humans have an awareness of what our is [ourselves, and our habitat/environment]). Growth (almost always stated as good, and mostly about "economic" growth) is based on increased consumption. Our game is "growth," without us really understanding that perpetual growth on a finite planet isn't possible: the game WILL end, either through environmental collapse [hitting nature's wall] or via collective suicide [nuclear war].

As to affecting "economics," all I can do is laugh. When our "economics" is based on the notion of perpetual growth on a finite planet I have to ask why people feel the need to champion/defend this as being something good. Good for the System, OK, but what is that System doing? Read up on Steven Donziger. I'll jump off the podium by stating that profit-taking by the handful of big shareholders does more to increase end-user costs than does environmental/emission related stuff. (no matter what profit levels or profit sharing, or not, as long as we're playing the game of perpetual-growth-on-a-finite-planet we WILL [mathematical certainty] ALL come up on the losing end [to mother nature- "nature bats last!"]. Human hubris is everywhere present and pervasive.

Disclaimer: I have OLD and NEW diesels; each has their place and their reason for being my selection; I view each as having their own positives and negatives and I adjust accordingly [everyone does, until it's no longer possible- all will eventually turn to dust]. I do not claim to KNOW any "solution" (the very word denotes a permanent state, and as long as time clicks by there is no such thing as permanence), nor do I evangelize FOR or against emissions stuff (or saving the planet/climate, though I DO value having a livable environment [I can, however, state that a LOT of people and a LOT of old diesels isn't a pleasant mix- go visit Manila to understand]).
 
 
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