Using Grapple to pull brush tips tractor forward

[stevenf]

I have to ask this and I'm sure I'll get plenty of eye rolls but I've got hundreds of huge brush piles on the ranch that I'm slowly making into more manageable burn size piles. Once in a while when I push into the pile and close the grapple I take what is obviously to biga bite and when I go to back up the tractor begins to raise up in the rear other than the obvious take smaller bites does anyone that uses a grapple for this type purpose have a better way of doing it as its just a might frightening to have the rear tires of a M9000 with urethane filled tires coming off the ground and the only thing that keeps you from going into a nose dive is clutch or shift into forward quickly. It is amazing the power of these little machines but they can sure try to hurt ya if ya let em.
Steve

 

[DUMBDOG]

Have you tried to put some weight on the back of the tractor such as a heavy box blade, etc. The more weight back there the better.

 

[Morgan1952]

Well, even if you add weight to the back of the tractor using another heavy implement, or a balast box, You will still need to use caution when backing up. I have picked up some pretty large trees with my loader and the rear came off the ground with my 60" box on the back. Adding weight to the rear and using caution are the only things that will help you.
Good luck
Bob

 

[KiotiJohn]

This is a case where a big ballast box, or a backhoe would be in order. It'll take a lot of weight to counter that load, but maybe you should take a smaller bite, because even with the extra rear weight, you may be picking up more than you should. If you get one side a little too heavy in the bucket, you "could" turn it over sideways. John

 

[slowzuki]

You need counterweight! Urethane doesn't weigh as much as calcium and you still need counterweight with calcium in the tires!

We use a big honking snowblower on our ag tractor, it weighs about 1500 lb and sticks out 6 feet or so.

Even with that sometimes I can get a rear tire in the air, but at least I can use the loader close to full capacity.

 

[Henro]

<font color="blue">Urethane doesn't weigh as much as calcium and you still need counterweight with calcium in the tires! </font>

slowzuki,

I don't know the relative density between foam and liquid calcium solution, but I believe that a foam-filled tire is frequently (maybe always? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif ) heavier than a liquid-filled tire.

Now this (if it is true) could be because the foam-filled tire is 100% filled with foam, while the liquid-filled tire is only 75% filled with liquid. So with foam there is 33% more ballast material in the tire (75 x 1.33 = 99.75).

So I guess foam could be lighter than calcium, but a foam-filled tire could still be heavier than a calcium filled one... /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Myself, I would stay happy with the foam filled rear tires and find something heavy to hang off the back of the tractor, as suggested... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[stevenf]

Dang ya'll got me again tell the whole story when asking a question and you get better answers. In addition to having all 4 tires filled with urethane which added 3000lbs I also have my 1200lb woods XB84 Box Blade on the back as I have learned a lot on this site and everyone has said lots of ballast for loader work.
Something I've tryed but it doesn't seem to make the work go as fast because I don't get the compression of brush in the load is I raise the grapple up high and open the jaws and come down on it from the top like a crane would do this seems to limit the amount I pickup to much so then I go back to just driving forward with the jaws open and then close them when in the pile to the hilt of the grapple rakes bottom jaw. Just every once in a while when I start to move its like reeling in a big fish for every inch the tractor goes backward the back end goes upward.
Steve

 

[beenthere]

You have more lift power on the FEL than you have counterbalance on the rear. Putting it simply, it works like a teeter-totter. The light end will be in the air. Preferably, the load in the grapple should be the 'light' end, or you could become a statistic in the local paper.

Another thing to learn, is when the rear end raises, one lowers the FEL to get the rear end down. Clutching and trying to drive under the load isn't, IMO, the 'way' to react to the rear wheels being up.

 

[PineRidge]

If I use the bucket grapple to pick up a good sized downed tree without counterbalance it happens to me too.

In the past I have used a box blade for counterbalance but most of the time the added width of the box doesn't work in the woods since it catches on trees.

I normally bolt 950 pounds of cast iron on the backside of my Class III Boomer to get her to settle down and go to work in the woods without acting nose heavy.

 

[lmiller]

Steven: I looked at the Kubota site for the weight of your M9000 without luck, but a 90b hp machine has got to be at about 3 times the weight of my 30 hp B7800. I can pick up the back end and 4-600# of brush hog if I chain too big a stump to the FEL. I'm sure someone will chime in but seems to me a rear weight bar for for your machine could be set up for way more than 1200#.
Also to respond to Henro "foam" means it has air mixed in, so I would bet urethane filled tires, althought 100% puncture resistant, are lighter than tires filled 80% with water/calcium mix.
Have you tried to figure out how many pounds or yards your bucket & grapple are picking up?

Lou

 

[stevenf]

beenthere, Typically the grapple bucket goes into the stack flush with the ground so the "FEL" is already as low as it can go the issue is when you use a grapple to move lots of brush around which is various sizes from sapplings to 2' across trees you never know quite what your latching onto until after you close the grapple and back up a bit if the stuff you got in the grapple moves your good to continue to back up and roll the loader and elevate slightly for transport. The problem is occasionally when I back up a bit instead of the brush moving out from the pile the **** end of the tractor begins to elevate at the same speed I'm backing up which obviously is always slow to give me time to stop and ungrip some of the load or drop it altogether and start over with less push into the pile until I figure out what is bigger than I am and then move it seperately by just finding the end and dragging it hopefully or worst case get the chainsaw out and cut it in half. I haven't had to do that yet usually if I just work around whatever is in the pile that is so big until I get it by itself I have been able to handle it one on one. I do all of this kind of work in slow low gear and it gives me time to stop I just figured someone else out there with loads of experience had some better method than the gee I hope this follows me out of here one that I've been using.
Steve

 

[slowzuki]

Do you use the loader to break the brush free of the pile before trying to drive away? Maybe curl it after grabbing so the initial break away is under loader power levering against other brush in the pile?

I find our ag tractor can break rocks and logs etc free with curl that it can't drag.

 

[stevenf]

slowzuki, The loader usually wont pick it up since the pile are very big its kinda necessary to pushin grab and backup so the rest of the pile thats not being held doesn't come tumbling down on top of you.
Steve

 

[MMM]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( more manageable burn size piles)</font>

Steven, I personally find the bigger the pile, the better. If you breaks a pile into smaller ones, that's more exposure and work when pushing them up for complete burn. A large pile will always burn better than a small one and much easier to babysit a single big pile than a bunch of smaller ones. Just my experiences from land clearing and burning.

 

[slowzuki]

Just curious as to what made stacks so high?

Is there any way to work sides so the face will collapse at right angles to you? When working a big pile of soil or whatever you can work the face from one side then the other so stuff falling off lands in front of you or on the bucket not on the tractor.

Being that big of pile, climbing around on it with a chainsaw doesn't sound so hot of idea either.

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( slowzuki, The loader usually wont pick it up since the pile are very big its kinda necessary to pushin grab and backup so the rest of the pile thats not being held doesn't come tumbling down on top of you.
Steve )</font>

 

[stevenf]

Slowzuki, In 1999 when we bought the place I had a crew of 12 to 20 men working for 2 years posting out the cedar they didn't have enough sense as far as I was concerned to light the piles so I told them to leave them. They were assembled with a great big JD commercial Track Loader he said it weighed around 40,000 he made the piles 30 feet high or so and worse yet he managed to push a lot of them under hardwood trees that I want to keep hence the answer to MMM's question why not just light them besides a 30' tall 100' around brush pile makes quite a blaze and I don't feel comfortable lighting a pile this big under the canopy of other trees so slowly but surely I'm moving them out in the open and wait for a rainy day and light them.
Steve

 

[slowzuki]

Steven, sound like our neighbours. They had an escavator in and asked him to pile the brush with his thumb on the boom so they could burn it later. He piled it about 10 ft from 5 acres of woods.

Just trying to be helpful, is there any way to rip out small bites and drop them then scoop up a mess of it for hauling to the new burn pile? Trying to think of efficient motions for moving that much material.

I've been logging this winter and it is amazing how much slash is generated. Luckily I'm selective cutting and can leave it in the woods to decompose for the next generation.
Ken

 

[stevenf]

Slowzuki, I appreciate any suggestions and yes that pretty much what I end up doing just pulling stuff out and then gather it up with the grapple to transport away from the trees a bit. Regrettably waiting on cedar cuttings to decompose isn't an option it would take many many years for it to even lay down flat much less decompose. A lot of our fences in Texas are constructed of cedar post as they don't decompose like a lot of wood there are fences made from cedar post on many ranches that are still standing and pretty firm after 50 years they rot from the inside out so the fencing attached is as strong as ever usually the post outlast several reapplications of barbed wire or other fencing.
Steve

 

[slowzuki]

We also have cedar here called eastern white or northern white. There are 300 year old cedar rail fences all over the place here, as you describe, hollow in the middle.

Many people call the stuff junk but it has many uses.

 

[KiotiJohn]

I understand your problem a lot better since you explained in more detail. I don't think you can safely solve the problem even by adding more rear ballast as what you're trying to do is pull a huge heavy load backward which is putting too much stress on the loader. It would be like me trying to pull an 80 foot pine tree out by tying a chain on it and pulling backward with the loader. The only thing that could happen is the rear would be pulled up.
You'll have to separate out some of the material and get smaller loads. The only suggestion I can make is to get a grappling hook to put on the end of a tow rope/chain and throw it into the pile and pull on part of the pile to get some of it out first. Hook to your drawbar where you'll have less chance of any problems. John
I hope none of that stuff dislodges heading your way! John