Ventrac 3000 versus PT422

[Bob_Skurka]

Hey guys, just a follow up on a discussion I started long ago (well several months back anyway) about the Power Trac equipment versus Ventracs and Steiners.

Today I have a PT422 in my yard, in addition to my Ventrac 3000.

First off, the PT is a far better tractor at tractoring.

But that said, I am very glad I own the Ventrac.

For slopes, the PT is not even close to as capable as the Ventrac. The PT is not as stable, and it is very stable. It is also not as capable of climbing while powering implements.

The mower on the Ventrac is better, the cut is better. My main objective when buying was to buy the best mowing machine that would work on slopes. PT is very good on slopes. Ventrac is better. PT is good at mowing. Ventrac is better.

However, when it comes to FEL work, even baby stuff like moving mulch the Ventrac simply cannot keep up. PHD, amazingly easy with the PT.

So my hat is off to you PT guys. I still love your stuff, but I bought the right tool for my situation. The PT is not without its limits, and my property proves that to me today. Perhaps a larger PT would compare more favorably to the little Ventrac, but then that would not be a very fair fight, afterall, we were comparing a more powerful PT to the Ventrac 3000 today.

I will say this, if I didn't have the NH, the Kubota and the implements that go with them, then I think there would likely be a Ventrac parked along side a PT in my garage, and there would not be the need for another tractor out in the yard.

 

[MossRoad]

Bob,
Thank you, thank you, thank you for a real side-by-side, honest comparrison of two machines. It is very refreshing. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

<font color="blue">I bought the right tool for my situation </font>

You made your check list, did your research and came up with a winner... I can't say enough about the time you put in looking for the right tool for your needs and then sharing that information with us here at TBN. I really appreciate it.

So how was that power down post hole digger? I'm think about getting one in the next year or two. What is your soil type(s) there?

 

[Bob_Skurka]

I'll admit the PHD on the PT422 works a lot better than a rear PHD on a CUT! I have heavy clay soil on the top land where the fence went in, they guys brought out a 2 man PHD and it would not dig so they installed the auger on the PT422 and it dug right in. I've never had trouble digging with a PHD using a CUT, but lining up the holes is much faster with the PT.

I think a PT425 probably would have been better at climbing the hills and powering implements at the same time, but that is a much larger machine than the Ventrac 3000. In fact, the physical size of the PT422 is larger than the Ventrac, but it seems like a pretty close apple-to-apple comparison.

The versatility of the PT is overwhelmingly superior. But that said, the Ventrac is a much better mower and much better slope "garden" tractor. The PT is more than a "garden" tractor.

 

[MossRoad]

They need to make a higher lift on the Ventrac. Then they'd have it all. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

[Bob_Skurka]

Moss, I actually like the slip scoop on the Ventrac more than I ever imagined I would. Sure the lift is only about 12" but for moving materials, it is great. Becuase of the inclines, I have used the scoop to haul decorative concrete blocks to build a planter on a slope. . . we tried pulling the tractor cart on that slope but it rolled over and it had a smaller load than I put into the scoop.

I think the only way to get greater lift height on the Ventracs would be to increase the machine size. Given my purpose for the machine, that would be a bad trade off.

 

[JackIL]

Bob,

Larger Ventracs ( 4100 and 4200) can be equipped with a "standard" loader in addition to slip scoops. The attached photo shows my 31 hp 4200 with a "standard" loader along with an Earth and Turf Top-Dresser Spreader. The loader bucket has a 9 cubic foot capacity, and the lift height at the bucket pins is 77 inches. The Top-Dresser holds about 20 cubic feet. I will be using this set-up to spread a compost produced by the Davenport, IA, Recycling Facility.

I also purchased a set of pallet forks for the loader. (See next post.) In addition a hydraulically driven auger attachement is available for the loader with auger diameters ranging from 6" to 30."

A very wide range of Ventrac attachments is available to make them very versatile units. In contrast to PT where the primary focus is on the loader, the Ventrac focus is primarily on mowing and turf applications with a secondary, but non-trivial, focus on loader work. Their capability to operate on slopes of up to 30 degrees with duals is the primary factor that meets my requirements.

Venture Products refers to these as Turf Tractors. I think the term "garden tractor" is not applicable to Ventrac 4100 and 4200 power units--they are much more versatile and capable than the term "garden tractor" implies.

JackIL

 

[JackIL]

Pallet Forks on Ventrac Loader

JackIL

 

[Bob_Skurka]

Jack, I was aware of the other attachments for Ventrac's larger models, but I was trying to stick with the original intent of my original threads. Both threads were started during my search, one was on the Garden Tractor forum, where we went through about 10 pages of debate looking for the best garden tractor. The other was here in the PT section where we actually started out looking at the Steiner 230 and the smaller PT units and it evolved from there. So to be true to the original posts, I felt it was best to simply limit this discussion to the little Ventrac 3000. It is also why when all this was debated on the PT forum before I bought the Ventrac, I kept looking at the smaller PT machines. I think the PT425 could probably handle my slopes and mow my lawn, but the trade off would have been a significant increase in both SIZE and COST so that is really not an apples to apples comparison.

Now if we want to get into a PT425 versus Ventrac 4100/4200 discussion . . .

 

[MossRoad]

There you go! That setup looks great. How hard is it to take off the loader and put the mower back on?

 

[JackIL]

MR,

The loader mounts or dismounts in 2 minutes or less. The same is true with all other attachments. The loader also has a quick-tach system for the working tools and buckets.

JackIL

 

[Bob_Skurka]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( MR,

The loader mounts or dismounts in 2 minutes or less. The same is true with all other attachments. The loader also has a quick-tach system for the working tools and buckets.

JackIL )</font>


I'm doing something wrong, it take me almost 3 minutes to swap implements if you count the time it takes to connect the mower belt.

 

[tracdoc]

Jack_IL and/or Bob_Skurka

Could either of you post some dollar figures for the true end-user costs of the Ventracs in the 3000 and 4000 series as well as the costs of their basic attachments? PTs price lists are readily available for a comparison. Are the Ventracs discounted at dealerships or are their prices fixed? Do dealers have different mark-ups? It is my understanding that the Ventracs "aples-for-apples" are considerably more expensive.

Also, what are your thoughts on:
*construction features, e.g., the basic tub on the PTs is is 3/16 to 1/2 inch plate steel. The one Ventrac I saw was fabricated from sheet metal, albeit thick, ala 'Bota, JD and the like, but not plate steel.
*hydraulic components, such as pumps, reservoir size, GPM, pressures, etc.
*construction quality of the attachments, and their capacities, e.g., the VersaLoader would appear to have a max lift capacity of 500#, as compared w/ 800# for PT425.

Which Model Ventracs would be the true "apples-to-apples" comparisons with the PT425 and 422, taking the global units into consideration, like true FEL, etc.?

Thanks for your input.

 

[Bob_Skurka]

Realistically I cannot answer your question the way you want it answered. I only know the prices of what I bought as I did not get quotes for the larger equipment, and frankly my Ventrac 3000 is a different type of machine than a PT422 (despite many similarities) I believe the primary roles are different, thus an apple to apple comparison of a 3000 to any PT machine is not really fair.

I will say that prices on Ventracs are VERY negotiable, especially if you talk to the dealer about the Steiner brand. It seems that Ventrac & Steiner dealers have a massive rivalry and prices seemed to melt before my eyes as I was asking questions and pointing out features of the competitor brand.

I think a low end Ventrac 4200 might match up to a PT425? A higher powered 4200 might match up to a larger PT unit. But again, there are so many differences that affect comparing them it really needs to be done by setting some rules.

Perhaps define a list of chores in a specific set of circumstances and then compare the two under those cirucmstances for those chores.

Hills and mowing quality and mowing speed were my big concerns. I was NOT concerned about using my Ventrac for "tractoring" type chores so it was easy for me to discount all of the added versitility the PT offers becuase I already own other machines to do those jobs. Dealing with some steep spots, some tight turns, and a high quality mowing job were where I centered my priorities. I strongly suspect that someone with different priorities would have different results depending on their task list.

 

[FOURTEEN]

"" I strongly suspect that someone with different priorities would have different results depending on their task list. ""


So true!! The most important step is to determine what YOUR needs are, then find the machine, or machines, to fill the bill!

The Swiss Army Knife seems like a great idea, but a real knife, sissors, or screw driver is what is really needed for most jobs!! My PT-425 does many jobs for me, but I am so glad that I decided to keep my old Power King for mowing, towing, and visiting!! That said, there is hardly a job, any job, that my first thought isn't: "How can I use the Power Trac to help me??"!!

 

[lowellw2]

Well now I'm going to start all over again, thanks to Bob Skurka playing with a PT422. I've been reading this forum for some time now. I think Moss Road's excellent analysis of his PT425 selection process got me interested in PT's. Bob detailed analysis and the discussions it evoked was excellent. My Kubota B7100, which has gotten heavy duty use since 1997 is getting a little tired or maybe I'm getting tired of it. I got it used from a rental yard and it's a great machine, but I can't put a belly mower on this model since it has a FEL and I don't want to be constantly looking back at a 3-pt mower. I've got about 5 acres of Texas hill country land to mow with lots of trees and another 5 to maintain along with 1/4 mile of drive. Most of my time seems to be spent mowing now, but I need something to move big rocks, maintain the drive and do other landscaping as time and budget allow. Unlike Bob, I'm not looking for the best mowing machine because most of my mowing is reclaimed native grass on rather rough land (rocks seem to grow when it rains). I do like the land to look maintained though, as does the better half. I have a lawn tractor I use to mow now and sometimes put the shredder on the Kubota for the tough tall stuff, but would like to shorten the time and effort expended so I can waste my time some other way.

I've been vacillating between a subcompact tractor w/ a belly mower, a commercial ZTR or a PT (preferably a 422 or 425, but have a 180 budget). A new subcompact would be great, but I'm not sure I would get the time saving. I was settling in toward a SCAG Tiger Cub ZTR for its toughness, speed and maneuverability. I figured it would really cut down the mowing time and I would have trouble breaking it. I could set the cutting height pretty high, put the throttle to the wall and hang on. I would keep the Kubota for the other jobs till it died or I die. Now Bob's evaluation of the PT422's capabilities throws a wrench in the thought process.

I've really liked the PT "swiss army knife" concept with its broad versatility, quick implement change and apparent stability, but, like many, remain concerned about service, if and when needed. I have the tools and can learn enough hydraulics to probably keep everything working, but am hesitant to pull the trigger. My dream package would be a 425, small bucket w/teeth, 60" finish mower, 48" rough mower, post hole unit w/ 6", box blade and mini-hoe. The Kubota and lawn tractor would go to the highest bidder. The 422 would be cost effective and I've toyed with the idea of putting the extra circuit on a 180 for the mini-hoe.

I've been lucky enough to have briefly played on a 425 and a 180 thanks to some owners near Austin, TX. However, I never really mowed or hauled anything or gave them a workout. I guess my major concern remaining is how the implements will hold up, especially the mowers. The Scag has a 7ga. deck with really heavy spindles and 1/4" blades. Rocks really do grow here. Past experience reveals I will hit them, notwithstanding being careful. I know the PT are built heavy, but can anyone opine as to what they feel the durability of the mowers in really tough stuff. Also, I guess I wonder how the auger handles hitting a rock or two. Does it bog, shear, bend or cut through soft limestone.

 

[JackIL]

Bob,

I agree with you completely--there is no way to make an apples-to-apples comparison between these articulated machines. They are simply not made for the same purposes and end users. The only comparison I think could be reasonably made is between Steiner and Ventrac and that is not the topic of discussion here.

One difference I would note is that both Steiner and Ventrac are considerably more expensive than what is listed on the PT website on a horsepower-to-horsepower basis. The main reason is that there are sales representatives and dealers with Steiner and Ventrac as contrasted to direct sales with PT. For me the dealer support issue is a very big factor whereas for others it imight not be.

My experience in buying both Steiner and Ventrac products is that the dealers tend NOT to discount as much as you might expect from JD, Kubota, etc. The most I have ever been able to get was 10% off list. There are so few dealers that they don't have to compete with one another in most locations. On the other hand I am aware of instances where very significant discounts were given when a dealer was liquidating product.

I think it will all come down to a single question for each potential end user. "Do I have a primary need for high quality mowing on slopes of up to 30 degrees with secondary applications in loader and related work, or do I have a primary need for a loader unit that can also mow (but maybe not up to 30 degrees)?

JackIL

 

[johara1]

on the pt mower deck,if anything they make has a weakness it's the mower deck.it looks well built,but that where it stops. the deck has a problem bending or flexing between the spindles.how i found out was the blades that were on it new measured a 1/4 inch larger than the extra set that i got with it.they hit the sides of the deck in heavy grass.also the spindles have a lot to be desired they the cheapest thing, look like they should be on a tractor from kmart. your greasing sealed ball bearings,250 hrs. already replaced! put tubes in the tires or they go flat. the mount that bolts to the deck cracks from the flexing.........heavy duty? i don't think so

 

[blackwell]

We have used a PT 60" mower for more than 10 years to mow a 3 acre lawn and the only thing replaced has been one belt. We keep 3 sets of blades and as soon as one set starts to get dull, it is replaced with a sharp set. Those three sets of blades were purchased with the mower and are still cutting, 10 years latter. Heavy duty , I think so!!


I ask God for all things that I might enjoy life, He gave me life that I might enjoy all things. (unknown)

 

[toolz_not_toyz]

Where do you get replacement blades for the PT mowers? From PT directly or is there an aftermarket replacement that will fit?

 

[MossRoad]

Heavy duty is in the eye of the beholder. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

That is what is weird, inconsistent, odd, strange... can't find a word for it...

Some users here on TBN use these things in everyday, heavy duty, commercial applications with hundreds and hundreds of hours and have little to no problems. Others' machines have problems 'out of the box' so-to-speak.

I use my mower once a week for about 1/2 to 3/4 of an hour April-Oct. That's about 16-20 hours a year. Not much to go by for a durability test. I have noticed that it rattles much more now than it did when I bought it. Most of the noise comes from the gaps between the spacers and the lynch pins on the front caster posts. As for the blades, I ordered spares, but have never put them on. I am still on the originals. This is my third year and they have never been sharpened. So they have about 60 hours on them, I suspect. I think they need sharpening now, as the quality of the cut is dimishing. I can see tearing on the tops of the grass blades insted of a nice trim edge. So I am very pleased with the cut quality and durability of the blades. However, the front tires are a weak point, and having to grease the spindles every 8 hours is annoying. I have a late 60's Simplicity mower deck with sealed bearings that are still working fine after 35+ years. I think they could have done better in that area. They at least could have attached some tubing up through the deck to re-locate the grease zerk to the top of the deck area. That would only add about $30.00 in parts and a little labor. Maybe increase the price of the deck $50.00 for a little operator convenience.

All in all, the commercial users seem pleased with the units. I am pleased with it, but think they could have done better. After three years of ownership I'd still have no hesitation buying it today. Wish I could say the same thing about other purchases that I have made. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif