Tractor News Viable Electric Tractor?

[crazyal]

Electricity is still electricity. The faster you charge a battery the more power you are going to need. That's either a higher voltage, which will require thicker shielding, or more current which will require thicker copper wires. Can you picture Bill Murry in Caddyshack dragging the water hose? It'll also require a huge upgrade in our power grid. Sorry but solar panels at your house will not help you when you are in the field doing work much unless they are connected to a battery system. EV's are nothing more than a temporary step towards a technology like fuel cells.

I can remember when the energy crisis hit (multiple times) and some people jumped on the latest fad. One of the latest fads with EVs are if the power goes out you can use your battery to power your house. That has to be one of the stupidest ideas I've heard. So when your car or tractor battery is dead then what? You now can't even go to work or use your tractor to feed the animals. In the end people return to buy what they want, what they feel best fits their needs. Or better yet what doesn't impact their style of living. Diesel is going nowhere since almost anyone with a little land can make it. Nobody does because it's "too much work".

 

[cqaigy2]

Electricity is still electricity. The faster you charge a battery the more power you are going to need. That's either a higher voltage, which will require thicker shielding, or more current which will require thicker copper wires. Can you picture Bill Murry in Caddyshack dragging the water hose? It'll also require a huge upgrade in our power grid. Sorry but solar panels at your house will not help you when you are in the field doing work much unless they are connected to a battery system. EV's are nothing more than a temporary step towards a technology like fuel cells.

I can remember when the energy crisis hit (multiple times) and some people jumped on the latest fad. One of the latest fads with EVs are if the power goes out you can use your battery to power your house. That has to be one of the stupidest ideas I've heard. So when your car or tractor battery is dead then what? You now can't even go to work or use your tractor to feed the animals. In the end people return to buy what they want, what they feel best fits their needs. Or better yet what doesn't impact their style of living. Diesel is going nowhere since almost anyone with a little land can make it. Nobody does because it's "too much work".

I'll just not run the cloths dryer on the day i charge my vehicle.

 

[jjp8182]

Just to add some fuel for thought (pun intended/attempted)- there have been recent news releases of universities developing methods to pull CO2 from the air in order to make synthetic fuels ...and for less than $4/gallon of fuel according to: Extract CO2 from our air, use it to create synthetic fuels - Energy Post

So it may very well turn out that manufactured hydrocarbon fuels just become the next "battery" technology and fuel cell or hybrid-powered vehicles end up being the near-to-medium future. Just saw one article that pointed out that there was a higher percentage of electric vehicles on the road in the early 1900's than there are today - which is an interesting tid bit to consider.

Even with battery technology advancing quickly it's still going to take a more than a little time to overcome the 30 to 100 times (depending on how a person wants to compare given current ICE engines don't use the full potential of the fuel) energy density advantage even gasoline has over current battery technology -- and given diesel has an energy density advantage over gasoline...

All things considered a mix of technologies isn't exactly a bad thing itself.....

 

[Username Taken]

Electric Cars go back to the 1830's. ICE (internal cumbustion engines) were shown to be better when they came along. And still are, to this day.

We don't know what would have happened had we worked hard on the electric vehicle (EV) for the last 190 years instead of the ICE.

We can start building nukes if we want to prop up the electrical grid but I suspect the lace-panty division would have a coronary if we did that.

Pixie dust seems to be the only answer. I'm gonna start my own Pixie Dust Company and get a goobermint loan. Like Solyndra

BTW; Tesla? You've heard of them?? While I kinda like Elon Musk, Tesla hasn't ever made a nickel on their EV's. All of their 'profit' is in the form of goobermint 'regulatory credits'. Look it up. generic motors is trying to cash-in as well. Those knuckleheads will screw it up, like they alwyas do, and we'll have to bail them out again because.... I can't think of a single reason, other than to make union workers fat as heck..... again.

Tesla’s dirty little secret: Its net profit doesn’t come from selling cars

Eleven states require automakers sell a certain percentage of zero-emissions vehicles by 2025. If they can’t, the automakers have to buy regulatory credits from another automaker that meets t…

www.mercurynews.com

Eleven states require automakers sell a certain percentage of zero-emissions vehicles by 2025. If they can’t, the automakers have to buy regulatory credits from another automaker that meets those requirements — such as Tesla, which exclusively sells electric cars.

It’s a lucrative business for Tesla — bringing in $3.3 billion over the course of the last five years, nearly half of that in 2020 alone. The $1.6 billion in regulatory credits it received last year far outweighed Tesla’s net income of $721 million — meaning Tesla would have otherwise posted a net loss in 2020.

Don't get me wrong. I love technology. Love it.

Just that, when the usual suspects (you know who I mean) get involved in any way, we always end up spending billions, if not trillions, of THE PEOPLE'S money and get next to nothing out of it.

American Universities are one of the biggest wasters of money on the planet. The only reason they ever do anything worthwhile is if the Private Sector is involved. And, no. They're not the answer to everything. Not even close. But Universities are even worse. They're where all our troubles begin. ALL of them.

Maybe China will figure something out

 

[bearthebruce]

Maybe China will figure something out

Believe me, they are. They will have the market on batteries. They will have the market on EVs.. Their government does support the development of new tech.

I have worked with the Chinese for 14 years now with them making product no one in the US wants to make at a reasonable price. I've learned a lot and have much respect for their capabilities. That said, I have also learned that their value system is very much different from the West's values. That is changing. They want to be accepted in the West as equals.

On EV - China is ahead and will stay ahead. They want EV and they need it to lower their pollution problems in their huge cities.

 

[Username Taken]

Believe me, they are. They will have the market on batteries. They will have the market on EVs.. Their government does support the development of new tech.

I have worked with the Chinese for 14 years now with them making product no one in the US wants to make at a reasonable price. I've learned a lot and have much respect for their capabilities. That said, I have also learned that their value system is very much different from the West's values. That is changing. They want to be accepted in the West as equals.

On EV - China is ahead and will stay ahead. They want EV and they need it to lower their pollution problems in their huge cities.

In China, when they discover a corrupt official, they execute him. Here? They vote him into high political office.

When the Chinese want to build a factory. They build one. Here? You have to bribe the Federal EPA (oh, yes you do [through donations to favored 'charities']) the State EPA (same-same), pay off the local Union and hope environMENTAL whackos don't plant some bear scat or an old Eagle's nest on the property

The Chinese started out leasing their factories. I suspect they still do but not as much, percentage-wise

IOW, you want to build a widget, you lease a factory and all its workers. They set you up for 'X' amount of tme and when you're done. You leave. And they set up for the next Lessee.

You almost certainly know more about it than I do; but it was pure genius.

Meanwhile, we're stuck in the mid 1800's. It's sad.

Even our innovation (we are an innovation-based economy), when it's stolen by them our completely and utterly and thorourghly, absolutely useless DoJ looks the other way while the Chinese laugh their butts off.

 

[bearthebruce]

Even our innovation (we are an innovation-based economy), when it's stolen by them our completely and utterly and thorourghly, absolutely useless DoJ looks the other way while the Chinese laugh their butts off

In Shanghai and Guanzhou, I met with legal elements of the US Commercial Services concerning the illegal clones of our product manufactured in China and sold all over the world. Simply put, they told me there is nothing they can do given Chinese law. They threw up their hands and said we cannot help you.

As a manufacturer, it was not the response I wanted to hear from the professionals our taxes pay to represent us in foreign markets. I spoke to their IP lawyers.. their hands are tied. We cannot help you. Hire your own IP lawyer and try to do something in Chinese courts.

As said, not the response we wanted to hear.

We play whack-o-mole. Everyday we run an application that scours the WWW for illegal sales of our product. Everyday we write take down notices to eBay, Amazon, Alibabba and others. The sales get removed. The next day, they are back as a different sale. Our selling partners around the world also play the game with us. Its our only defense against the clones.

At one point, there were over a 1 million illegal units operating around the world. The legal units sold are a fraction of that number.

Yes, we understand the problem. Our government does not help.

The Chinese economy 2 years ago still was not able to be sustained without the export of goods to others. Owing to that, the Chinese government turns a blind eye to the copies - their economy needs the money. Their middle class is growing fast. It will sustain them within 10 years. But for now, goods have to be produced and sold outside China to keep things going.

The Chinese government is pouring large dollars into EV technology. They will lead the world as I said. They are investing more heavily than others.

 

[Username Taken]

In Shanghai and Guanzhou, I met with legal elements of the US Commercial Services concerning the illegal clones of our product manufactured in China and sold all over the world. Simply put, they told me there is nothing they can do given Chinese law. They threw up their hands and said we cannot help you.

<snip>

No sarcasm here at all when I say, they're almost certainly bought and paid for by the Chinese. Our officials, I mean.

All they need to do is get an order to seize any assets they might have in the US. They just don't want to.

 

[Grumpycat]

Electricity is still electricity. The faster you charge a battery the more power you are going to need. That's either a higher voltage, which will require thicker shielding, or more current which will require thicker copper wires.

Meh. You already have at least 1000 VAC on the utility pole. Around here they’ll power at least a dozen homes with 400A service before tapping a larger source.

Can you picture Bill Murry in Caddyshack dragging the water hose? It'll also require a huge upgrade in our power grid. Sorry but solar panels at your house will not help you when you are in the field doing work much unless they are connected to a battery system. EV's are nothing more than a temporary step towards a technology like fuel cells.

There are some really big problems to make fuel cells economically. And once that is overcome there is the problem of very poor efficiency. And the other inconvenient problem if where to get H2 from when you have demonized carbon”? The only economical source is from natural gas.

I can remember when the energy crisis hit (multiple times) and some people jumped on the latest fad.

Such as ethanol? Ethanol and H2 have the same benefits as gasoline and diesel through the eyes of Big Government: they know how to tax, regulate, and extort campaign donations from the industry. Have an awfully hard time controlling and taxing the production of electricity from privately owned PV panels.

One of the latest fads with EVs are if the power goes out you can use your battery to power your house. That has to be one of the stupidest ideas I've heard. So when your car or tractor battery is dead then what? You now can't even go to work or use your tractor to feed the animals.

By golly you are right! I’ll remember not to siphon fuel from my vehicles to power generators next time!

Or, maybe the truth is that when energy is needed I should take it from whatever I have?

Clearly you are new at this and not given it much thought. Armchair Quarterback Self-styled Environmental Activists long ago thought they had a perfect solution for Big Government to mandate: that your EV battery had to be taken as public property to “load balance the grid” thinking everyone would love that idea. The problem is they never actually do any real projects or businesses or farms where things have to pay for themselves without unlimited government grants. Is not as bad today but it is easy for the lifetime cost of a battery storage system to exceed to cost of the electricity that it stored. This is why utility systems do not purchase large battery arrays to store the surplus available at night for use during the day.

In the end people return to buy what they want, what they feel best fits their needs. Or better yet what doesn't impact their style of living. Diesel is going nowhere since almost anyone with a little land can make it. Nobody does because it's "too much work".

So you have never actually made biodiesel, else you would not say that. Budget $25,000 and see what you can do to make your own diesel. Please report on the consumable supplies needed and how you will dispose of the byproducts.

Then do the same for a PV solar system.

 

[Grumpycat]

Electric Cars go back to the 1830's. ICE (internal cumbustion engines) were shown to be better when they came along. And still are, to this day.

We don't know what would have happened had we worked hard on the electric vehicle (EV) for the last 190 years instead of the ICE.

Today’s battery technology is limited by our understanding of chemistry. It took 140 years to get the internal combustion engine to where it is now.

1970’s Popular Science EVs had problems with electric motor controllers. Used relays to recombine battery cells to control motor speed. I remember a prototype EV UPS truck that served a route in Huntsville AL about 1982. It went “clickety clack” down the road as big contactors regulated motor speed. It was a full size trademark traditional UPS brown delivery van.

Is quite an unheralded achievement how Tesla packs a 400 kW motor controller in a package about the size of a 5 gallon bucket.

 

[bearthebruce]

Is quite an unheralded achievement how Tesla packs a 400 kW motor controller in a package about the size of a 5 gallon bucket.

Agreed. 20 years ago, I delivered a 300KW power supply for a vacuum furnace - There were 6 units total delivering 1.2MWatts to this furnace (not all sections were 300KW). The 300KW section was not water cooled but air cooled. The heat sinks measured 24"x36"x8" with rather large fans moving air across them.

I am impressed by what Tesla and others are doing in terms of KW/cu inch. It takes some really solid design to have the power density they are achieving.

EV technology will continue to evolve. 20 more years, the frame of the machine may be the battery given the work being done with Carbon Fibre constructs. Read an article on that yesterday. They are working to get the power density up while providing structural members of a vehicle - no more battery tray is the goal. The battery is the internal structural cage - distributing the weight and making the vehicle lighter.

Big Breakthrough for “Massless” Energy Storage: Structural Battery That Performs 10x Better Than All Previous Versions – SciTechDaily

 

[PuffyC]

their value system is very much different from the West's values

That is the truth. I don’t like making cultural generalizations but from my experience with both China and India, they tend to view things we might call cheating as simply being smarter than the other guy. It’s not seen as immoral or wrong. That goes for everything from university degrees to product development. IOW, if you’re smart enough to cheat the other guy and get away with it then it’s the other guys fault for not being as smart or clever as you are. But as to why they own manufacturing, it’s hard to compete with a billion people willing to work tirelessly for $2 a day.

 

[GB540]

A battery tractor so I can spend big money on a battery every 10 years and only run half a day at a time. No thanks.

Spend big money on repairs and be down half the time? Sounds like the current diesels with emissions!

I'm in the market for a 70-100 hp utility tractor, and would buy electric in a minute if it meant not fighting all the mandated emissions stuff. Some will say "Then find a good old used one!" or "Delete all the EPA junk!" but neither are an option at this point.

For what a diesel motor and all the emissions hardware costs, I don't see why a utility-sized machine couldn't be electric for almost a wash in price. It'll be a while before we see a viable electric in say a row crop tractor that needs to cover thousands of acres and run around the clock. But for a utility that sees moderate use and doesn't venture far from the buildings, one would think electric could work.

 

[MiserableOldFart]

Eco-friendly my patoot. They just burn the fuel in a different location and transport it inefficiently to the battery charger.

You are about 250% wrong on that score. Even when using juice from coal burning plants, EVs are cleaner than ICE vehicles, and that's for gasoline. For diesel, it's probably better still. EVs and even ETs will be the wave of the future. Much depends on your age. I'm 70, and likely will miss out for the most part, but 10 years from now, the cost of parts for diesel compacts will make it impossible for them to compete with electrics. Battery weight is a plus in many tractor applications, unlike for cars. But one thing you failed to consider: With the price of rooftop solar going down all the time, anyone who is going to blow $25K or more on an ET should certainly be considering rooftop solar to power their EVs and ETs. And don't forget the extra trips to town for diesel and lugging it filling the tractor etc - no more.
Maintenance of ETs will be much less. How many gallons does a HST tractor need in hydro fluid? An ET would only need enough for hydraulic implements. There's like 5-10 gallons less of oil every 300 hours or so. No transmission to worry about. Probably no complicated clutches either. Electric tractors are the future for those under 60 years of age now, and it's an exciting one!
Disclaimer: I have a massive, lol, investment of $500 in Solectrac.

I don't remember the Solectrac machines being 15 hp, either. Is that something new? I was under the impression that they have two modes, 30 and 40 hp equivalent.

 

[LOWTECH]

Just amp hours. Use all the time in selecting 2 amps or 6 amps to charge my 12 volt batteries. Voltage doesn't matter.

I will ask -

 

[4570Man]

Spend big money on repairs and be down half the time? Sounds like the current diesels with emissions!

I'm in the market for a 70-100 hp utility tractor, and would buy electric in a minute if it meant not fighting all the mandated emissions stuff. Some will say "Then find a good old used one!" or "Delete all the EPA junk!" but neither are an option at this point.

For what a diesel motor and all the emissions hardware costs, I don't see why a utility-sized machine couldn't be electric for almost a wash in price. It'll be a while before we see a viable electric in say a row crop tractor that needs to cover thousands of acres and run around the clock. But for a utility that sees moderate use and doesn't venture far from the buildings, one would think electric could work.

There no electric to date that can work even half a day at full power. And most farm and construction machinery isn’t being hauled in every night to charge. Are you going to haul a generator out or stick a solar panel in top and hope the stars charge it by the next morning?

 

[ning]

disclaimer: I'm not in Ag, and this doesn't apply to continuously working tractors

A *lot* of the time on my tractor is effectively idling. With emissions stuff, you can't take advantage of diesels using next to no fuel at idle, even my tractor wants some heat for the DPF and even jumping off for 20 seconds to open a gate is wasted fuel.

An electric can be almost zero power usage whenever you don't need it to be moving; that's going to be a big win.

Personally I think there's going to be ag tractors with big interchangeable batteries and a battery charging & changing station. Getting low? Drive over, pull a level and push a button and it swaps batteries for you and starts charging the other one. There's your 150kW "fill-up" in a minute or two.

 

[aczlan]

disclaimer: I'm not in Ag, and this doesn't apply to continuously working tractors

A *lot* of the time on my tractor is effectively idling. With emissions stuff, you can't take advantage of diesels using next to no fuel at idle, even my tractor wants some heat for the DPF and even jumping off for 20 seconds to open a gate is wasted fuel.

An electric can be almost zero power usage whenever you don't need it to be moving; that's going to be a big win.

Personally I think there's going to be ag tractors with big interchangeable batteries and a battery charging & changing station. Getting low? Drive over, pull a level and push a button and it swaps batteries for you and starts charging the other one. There's your 150kW "fill-up" in a minute or two.

The problem is that the charging station to get a battery that big charged before the next ones runs out will need to be a large 3 phase charging station and will cost at least 20k (and you will need them all over the place to have one near where you are working).
Even if you have the 480V 3 phase available all over the place (its flat out not available in many rural areas), now you have to haul a charger and battery around and hope no vandals have messed with your connection to the grid.

Aaron Z

 

[bearthebruce]

Personally I think there's going to be ag tractors with big interchangeable batteries and a battery charging & changing station

The problem is that the charging station to get a battery that big charged before the next ones runs out will need to be a large 3 phase charging station

Gentlemen, I think you both have good points. There will be different machines for different markets: the light use device for maintaining land, and the heavy use device for farming. One may be electric and the other may remain an ICE driven machine. Time will tell.

If nothing else, this idea of electric tractors is an interesting concept. I look forward to watching what evolves.

As an EE, I like the idea of an electric machine although I see many drawbacks. One of the things I have always loved about being a technical engineer applying science to solve problems is the fun of identifying the best approach to solving. There are so many ways to solve a problem. Finding the definition of "best" has always been the challenge.

Finding a "best" solution to replacing the ICE based machines is the challenge here also. If we can do it while improving the environment, is that not a win? It also has to be practical and economical. It is an interesting problem to solve.

 

[chim]

Dear MOF,

Even when using juice from coal burning plants, EVs are cleaner than ICE vehicles, and that's for gasoline. For diesel, it's probably better still.

Yep. If you only look for an exhaust pipe. There's an awful lot of Mother Earth being ruined in the race for batteries, solar panels and other stuff. Check this report:

The dystopian lake filled by the world’s tech lust

Hidden in an unknown corner of China is a toxic, nightmarish lake created by our thirst for smartphones, gadgets and green tech, discovers Tim Maughan.

www.bbc.com

EVs and even ETs will be the wave of the future. Much depends on your age. I'm 70, and likely will miss out for the most part, but 10 years from now, the cost of parts for diesel compacts will make it impossible for them to compete with electrics.

I'm 71 and have seen predictions of global cooling, global warming, lunar colonies, depletion of oil and gas, etc. And don't forget flying cars. Many of these had "scientists" behind the claims.

Battery weight is a plus in many tractor applications, unlike for cars.

Some owners complain their small tractors weigh too much already.

But one thing you failed to consider: With the price of rooftop solar going down all the time, anyone who is going to blow $25K or more on an ET should certainly be considering rooftop solar to power their EVs and ETs.

It would require a lot of study, but it's possible that if one were to spend many thousands of dollars on a solar roof it may be more beneficial to sell your power to the grid and buy diesel anyway.

And don't forget the extra trips to town for diesel and lugging it filling the tractor etc - no more.

I don't make extra trips for diesel, milk or bread. If you run the batteries too low out on the lower 40, phone someone to bring you a gallon of electrons

Maintenance of ETs will be much less. How many gallons does a HST tractor need in hydro fluid? An ET would only need enough for hydraulic implements. There's like 5-10 gallons less of oil every 300 hours or so. No transmission to worry about. Probably no complicated clutches either.

There could be fewer moving parts in an EV, but batteries don't last forever and we all know how expensive it is to have more electronics that are on board. the HVAC on an EV may be interesting to maintain in the long run.

Electric tractors are the future for those under 60 years of age now, and it's an exciting one! Disclaimer: I have a massive, lol, investment of $500 in Solectrac.

Your dream might not be realistic, but go with it if it makes you happy I'd congratulate you if that $500 turns into $5,000,000.