VW Clean diesels.... how did they get them so clean?

[ultrarunner]

I'm thinking the mileage will still be within spec... not sure about driveability???

Maybe with the emission control always on... the car will drive/perform as advertised?

 

[JWR]

They were caught completely by accident. Some researchers were studying European diesels to see if they were compliant under real road conditions. Then decided to compare with US diesels under real road conditions. The tests were way off for the VW diesels but OK for other tested cars. Then state of California and EPA got involved to find out why. Took a while before VW admitted they set up the defeat software on purpose.

Not what I heard: Engineers at West Virginia University wrote a paper on their findings about the unusual discrepancy between emissions on TDI when under test versus out on the road. This paper was presented more than a year ago at a venue where EPA people were present. It is thus well documented. That technical paper is what triggered investigation (initially not by the EPA at all but by others) and now in 2015 the EPA got all excited and public about it. See Meet the man who uncovered Volkswagen's lie where the WVU professor and his team are credited.

It is true (from reputable news sources) that the State of California forced the issue by threatening VW to stop sales if they did not explain the descrepancies. VW saw they were caught at that point and caved in.

 

[JWR]

OK, this thread is already way beyond sensible record-setting lengths but I'll still offer these comments:
1) We have a 2013 Beetle TDI 6 speed stick that runs like a 1960's V8, gets 40 some MPG most of the time, drives like a fun buggy and is simply a great little vehicle in all regards.
2) The EPA is the most out of control, oppressive and holier than thou department in an otherwise lousy XXXXXL government. To whom do they justify their arbitrary "standards" ? NO ONE !!!
3) Anyone who makes the EPA look like the bunch of fools that they are should be given a medal. Kudos to VW even if it ruins their business for a while.
4) Think about it: How many TDI owners with cars that have outstanding performance and yet get high MPG are going to run right in and have them degraded in some recall? Duh !
5) I predict that the TDI recall will be the worst attended in the history of automotive recalls.
6) I also predict that low mileage TDI vehicles are going to skyrocket in value on the used car market for the next several years. Investors: Buy now! Buy now !

 

[IslandTractor]

OK, this thread is already way beyond sensible record-setting lengths but I'll still offer these comments:
1) We have a 2013 Beetle TDI 6 speed stick that runs like a 1960's V8, gets 40 some MPG most of the time, drives like a fun buggy and is simply a great little vehicle in all regards.
2) The EPA is the most out of control, oppressive and holier than thou department in an otherwise lousy XXXXXL government. To whom do they justify their arbitrary "standards" ? NO ONE !!!
3) Anyone who makes the EPA look like the bunch of fools that they are should be given a medal. Kudos to VW even if it ruins their business for a while.
4) Think about it: How many TDI owners with cars that have outstanding performance and yet get high MPG are going to run right in and have them degraded in some recall? Duh !
5) I predict that the TDI recall will be the worst attended in the history of automotive recalls.
6) I also predict that low mileage TDI vehicles are going to skyrocket in value on the used car market for the next several years. Investors: Buy now! Buy now !

1) Glad you like your bug.
2) To whom do they justify their standards???? Give me a break. It is public information and they publish proposed standards a year or so ahead of time for comment. You can bet that lobbyists do their best to undermine whatever science the EPA has relied on. There are multiple public meetings about any standard the EPA is proposing. The science behind the standards is clearly explained in the EPA standards. Have you ever read one? The "holier than thou" contingent are the radio jocks who get you guys all in a froth.
3) Why does VW make EPA look like fools? By lying and being devious? Do you think that the IRS look like fools because someone failed to report income or reported excessive deductions?? Do police look like fools because someone ran a red light or exceeded the speed limit?
4) Some TDI owners will reflash because they don't like to pollute. Some will reflash because their state won't renew their registration until they reflash. Don't bother with the state's rights garbage. If the states want federal highway funds they will comply.
5) See #4
6) Good luck investing your retirement portfolio in used TDIs.

 

[tcartwri]

Anyone notice that the diesel Cruze has been dropped for 2016...

 

[MikePA]

2) To whom do they justify their standards????

Because the EPA can deprive citizens of their property without due process.

3) Why does VW make EPA look like fools?

Because EPA knew about this situation for over a year and did nothing.

4) Don't bother with the state's rights garbage. If the states want federal highway funds they will comply.

State's rights is not 'garbage', it's one of the founding principles of this country, when we fought to escape the tyranny of a powerful, centralized government, the King of England.

4) If the states want federal highway funds they will comply.

An example why state's rights are so important, federal black mail.

 

[IslandTractor]

Because the EPA can deprive citizens of their property without due process. Because EPA knew about this situation for over a year and did nothing. State's rights is not 'garbage', it's one of the founding principles of this country, when we fought to escape the tyranny of a powerful, centralized government, the King of England. An example why state's rights are so important, federal black mail.

1). EPA did not "do nothing" for a year. They worked with VW to resolve the issue. VW twice in that time period tried fixing the problem with a flash and couldn't. It was only then that EPA issued their statement. That is how organizations like EPA work. They don't pick up the phone to Faux News and scream hysterically the moment somebody drops a dime.

2) I don't need a naive lecture about state's rights. I am well aware that the push and pull has been going on since before 1792 and that Jefferson and Madison still managed to participate in a government led by federalists leaders like Hamilton, Adams and Washington. Perhaps you need to consider that it was the state's rights crowd that insisted that slavery be preserved in the constitution. State's rights has been part of the balancing act for two and a half centuries. It is not some principle that the EPA, initiated by a Republican president suddenly decided to ignore. State's rights is not garbage but neither is it a trump card.
Bottom line is that only a blind fool would look at this VW diesel gate issue objectively and manage to blame the EPA. I didn't hear any GOP candidates in the past election screaming for more EPA staff and funding to allow for in house testing. In fact virtually everyone of them bought into the wingnut crap about disbanding the EPA. It's really rich for y'all to now be claiming they weren't aggressive enough.

 

[3930dave]

I like diesels. I'm not interested in breathing air I have to chew first. I also like to know how things work.

Prior to this breaking (at least a year back), I went looking for studies comparing lung disease, Europe vs. USA. I found nothing conclusive - If anybody has access to a relevant peer reviewed study, please post. Given the high rate of diesel use in Europe (or Asia), my thinking was if diesel exhaust truly was the devil's breath, then the epidemiological studies should track use accordingly.

Asthma has been brought up. Complicated disease. Growing up, I went to a number of large schools, and knew many people. Through to the end of high-school, I only came across 3 people with asthma. Present day asthma rates IMO are more driven by other factors; given how diesels belched back in the 60's we all should have had major lung problems if it was a primary cause.

NOX emissions are the major issue - not just with diesels. Part of the reason gas engines don't have better fuel mileage is to keep NOX down.

Most of the public doesn't really understand the science involved. NOX is actually cited as a factor in global cooling.

"NOx emissions also causes global cooling through the formation of OH groups that destroy methane molecules, countering the effect of greenhouse gases."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOx

I'm not a fan of acid rain - point being - the balancing act is complicated.

I'm willing to bet that if you totalized the amount of NOX produced by burning coal in the USA and added the Ag related fertilizer amounts cited in the above article you'd find that the overall impact of these TDI engines is minimal.

Some industries get (relatively) Free Passes, some don't. Interesting point about the '16 Cruze. I doubt that VW was the only company doing this in light vehicles.

Rgds, D.

 

[sseelhoff]

Do you think the new lower mileage will be less than the EPA window sticker mileage?

The reason I say this is everyone I know says the VW diesel is one of the few cars that routinely beats the EPA mileage ratings... which makes sense if the emission software is enabled while the vehicle is tested on the EPA simulation.

Don't know, but thinking out loud, if they could meet the mileage spec without having to cheat on the emissions standards, why cheat unless there is a siginificant performance issue-the numbers I saw on peformance were 2700 torque versus 2300 torque in test vs. road modes. Doesn't seem that significant, but how those numbers translate are lost on me.

The other issue is engine durability. I have read that road mode results in better engine durability. Test mode degrades long term durability, but have not seen how significant that might be.

 

[IslandTractor]

... The other issue is engine durability. I have read that road mode results in better engine durability. Test mode degrades long term durability, but have not seen how significant that might be.

Is the concern engine durability or emission system durability. If the latter it seems they could just extend the relevant warranty.